Combining Taiji and Yiquan Principles. Sam Tam

[Flying Crane]

What if when you try to "crash" into your opponent, suddenly, he is not there any more?

Here is an example:

- A drags B.
- B yields into A, and tries to crash into A.
- A spins his body, moves himself out of B's moving path, and lead B into the emptiness.

Since B doesn't know when A will spins his body, A has advantage over B.

What if what if what if. There is always a what if. When you understand the method, you have a way to deal with the what if’s. Dwelling on a what if is pointless.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if what if what if. There is always a what if. When you understand the method, you have a way to deal with the what if’s. Dwelling on a what if is pointless.

Without "what if", there won't be any computer program.

Without "what if", there won't be any MA tree.

 

[Flying Crane]

Without "what if", there won't be any computer program.

Without "what if", there won't be any MA tree.

There are always what ifs. I said that.
You cannot pre-plan then in the way you think you want to.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't know a lot about Chinese arts, but the above quote interested me, in the process in the video, are you looking for the tension in your opponent? , the teacher seemed to react by pushing his opponent at a point of tension, and at a 45 degree angle, I can see the benefit of reaction training and the freedom of movement, also the benefit of staying in contact, but was just wondering about seeking tension in your opponent.

Your actually looking for a place of instability and their center of balance. This is why I feel that I need t have some of what is being done in in the video demonstrated on me. I am not passing judgement, I just see a couple things that do not add up.

However, tension can be a place of instability, especially during an attack by the opponent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't believe in "push" because when your opponent hold on your wrist, you just can't push him away. What's the usage to train pushing skill if your opponent's "monster grip" can make your pushing skill to be useless.

That something isn't applicable in some situations doesn't make it useless. A punch doesn't work from outside punching range, or if he gets behind you. But we train them, anyway.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I only train something that's useful.

When I grab on your wrist, you can

- punch my head and knock me down.
- pull my leg and take me down.

You just can't push me away when I grab on your wrist.

You still have not answered my question. What's the usage of your pushing skill if your opponent's "monster grip" can make your "pushing skill" to be useless?

Most throws have a pushing component.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Most throws have a pushing component.

You should see Tim Cartmell's approach to Sun Style Taijiquan applications. A whole lot of pushing and throwing going. As a matter of fact, now that I think about it, every applications, someone ends up getting thrown on the ground

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yang Push hands as it comes from Tung Ying Chieh
>Stationary 1 hand
>Stationary 2 hand
>stick and follow (moving) generally 1 hand, similar to what you were showing but there is no fixed stepping pattern
>3 step (moving)
>4 corner (moving) there is a lock practices in this as well
>There is also a 1 step, but this is quick and attack and response and have done it rarely
>free style with 13 postures applications work and as you advance even qinna, this is where I would end up on the floor when working with my Shifu.

I have some minor Chen push hands training, but I never got past stationary 2 hands in Chen. But there is a lot of qinna and Shuaijiao in Chen too.

Is push hands for fighting? Yes and no.

There are fighting applications in it, The best Qinna I have ever come across is my Yang Shifu. I have trained qinna with a lot of folks, one of those Yang Jwing Ming. I can always feel it coming, sometimes I can stop it, sometimes I can't (see Yang Jwing Ming). But with my taiji shifu I never feel it coming. I am all of a sudden locked. His explanation for this is "You lock yourself". It comes from his sensitivity and patients. I am in the right position and he applies very little pressure and I am locked. But If you are going to get in a fight, and all you have is push hands, you will likely lose, push hands for the most part is a tool. However there is a saying in Taijiquan, if you understand the 13 postures, you can fight. And I do agree with that. But that is not push hands, it can be, and is combined with push hands. I am in a a push hands group and there is a lot of joint locking and throwing going on, we do not get into striking. But this is a freestyle push hands group, there are no set patterns here. But we all know it is a tool and there is more to learn. Taijiquan has a lot more than just pushing. But that pushing, if done right, at the right time, will take someones root and knock them off balance (which you could then take the advantage) or it can knock them on the floor.

Is it for sensitivity and learning to find someone else's center? Yes. But trained properly, it has real world, fighting applications. Even if that applications it in support of something else like kicking, punching, shuaijiao or qinna.

As for the OP video, some of it I know because it is straight up Yang style. Some of it I would have to experience for myself for me to believe it

This is a demo, from my lineage, most of which I have experinced over the years. This was Tung Hu Ling, oldest son of Tung Ying Chieh, and classmate and friend of my Shifu. The other guy is (a young) Tung Kia Ling oldest son Tung Hu Ying

When you talk about PH, it sounds like a more robust version of the PH drills I've used in Aikido training. And it has the same base purposes (sensitivity, learning to loosen, recognizing the opportunity, etc.), and when done properly translates to actual application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I grab on your wrist,

1. You can not push me away.
2. You can pull me into a wrestling game.
3. You can start a striking game.

In all cases, the push game is over. Either the wrestling game will start, or the striking game will start.

I can push you off-balance. In fact, that's easier when we're attached than when we're not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What if when you try to "crash" into your opponent, suddenly, he is not there any more?

Here is an example:

- A drags B.
- B yields into A, and tries to crash into A.
- A spins his body, moves himself out of B's moving path, and lead B into the emptiness.

Since B doesn't know when A will spins his body, A has advantage over B.

And what happens if when you go for a single-leg, the leg moves? There are counters to everything. You're being absolutist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can push you off-balance. In fact, that's easier when we're attached than when we're not.

If I have grip on you, your balance will become my balance, also I can drag you down with me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And what happens if when you go for a single-leg, the leg moves? There are counters to everything. You're being absolutist.

This is why it's a bad idea to use 2 hands to grab that leg. If you only use one hand while use the other hand to grab his upper body, when he steps back, you can pull him downward.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If I have grip on you, your balance will become my balance, also I can drag you down with me.

Been there, it was rather unpleasant for the guy that pulled me down when I fell on top of him. But you do have a point, that is why there are other things you need to do

 

[23rdwave]

- When someone grabs me they become part of me. When I move they move.

If I have grip on you, your balance will become my balance, also I can drag you down with me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I have grip on you, your balance will become my balance, also I can drag you down with me.

Not always. And sometimes, that's a better outcome (if I can end the throw in a control position on the ground).

The part I'd disagree with is that someone who has a grip on you always makes your balance theirs. For a good grappler, that should be the aim, but it isn't always successful. Judo players get thrown while grabbing, kind of a lot. Not always do they manage to pull the thrower with them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is why it's a bad idea to use 2 hands to grab that leg. If you only use one hand while use the other hand to grab his upper body, when he steps back, you can pull him downward.

You're making my point here, John. You're talking about what to do if that leg moves. The same adaptations are true of other techniques, as well - likely including those in Taiji. Just as the single-leg isn't useless just because a leg could move...

 

[Buka]

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You're making my point here, John. You're talking about what to do if that leg moves. The same adaptations are true of other techniques, as well - likely including those in Taiji. Just as the single-leg isn't useless just because a leg could move...

This discussion starts from whether "what if" is needed. IMO, without "what if", there won't be any discussion.

You punch me. I'm down. End of discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This discussion starts from whether "what if" is needed. IMO, without "what if", there won't be any discussion.

You punch me. I'm down. End of discussion.

Nobody has said "what if" isn't needed. Just that a "what if" doesn't invalidate anything, in and of itself.

 

[VPT]

I used to like Yiquan. Then I learned that they cannot fight anymore. I was sad.

I believed that it too has succumbed to an excess of theory of t3h iNtErNaLZ while losing the profound study of violence and hurt in the same way how it has happened in most of the IMA scene.