" Chinese Wrestling "

[Hanzou]

Eliminating two thirds of the founder's vision for the art (Kata and stand up) is the most logical conclusion?

Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.

This is one of those grey areas. For GJJ etc I think this is true but (scoot), for the average BJJ school it'll depend on the lineage just like Judo. You'll find a whole lot of BJJ schools that are comp focused and mostly doing ground, and Judo schools that don't really cover the whole curriculum (which is pretty big) and throwing/falling a lot (and ignoring ancient Judo wisdom like the Pudding Guard).

And then you'll find "Goldilocks" schools that do a good mix of both to the right levels. That's the school for me. Not hard to find in 2022 but you have to know what you want.

Kata in Judo afaik are very high level training anyway? Not something youngins spend their time on much.

And was it really eliminated? There are BJJ flowcharts out there showing detailed sequences from guard to submission.

 

[geezer]

Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.

Nah.

If kata is used as a series of short drills that build useful attributes and conditioning it's useful....

My son used to train under a great and somewhat quirky wrestling coach, a former Korean Olympic team member who was also a high level instructor in traditional Korean martial arts. He had his wrestlers train solo drills, you know, linked sets of moves that were kinda like short wrestling katas. He coached some really good college and high school wrestlers.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.

The solo drill is just the partner drill witout partner. It can be used to "polish" your skill when partner is not available.

Partner drill:



Solo drill:

 

[frank raud]

Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.

Kano believed that it was important to learn Tachi-waza (standing techniques) before ne-waza(ground techniques). He also wanted matches to start from standup, not on the knees. This is because HE believed the concepts of judo were best taught (and experienced) in the Tachi-waza phase. For you to decide the natural evolution of judo is to ignore the precepts of its founder is delightfully ignorant, much like your claim kata is useless. In BJJ, no doubt. In Judo? It is one of the pillars of the art.

 

[frank raud]

Kata in Judo afaik are very high level training anyway?

Eh, sort of. In many countries, demonstration of the nage no kata (forms of throwing) begins at green belt. There are three sections to the kata, you must demonstrate the first section for green belt, the first two sections for blue belt and all three for brown belt. The other katas in judo are generally reserved for black belts, although we often studied the goshin jutsu (forms of self defense) kata in class as mudansha.

 

[Hanzou]

Nah.

If kata is used as a series of short drills that build useful attributes and conditioning it's useful....

My son used to train under a great and somewhat quirky wrestling coach, a former Korean Olympic team member who was also a high level instructor in traditional Korean martial arts. He had his wrestlers train solo drills, you know, linked sets of moves that were kinda like short wrestling katas. He coached some really good college and high school wrestlers.

It can be useful, but it isn't optimal.

 

[Hanzou]

This is one of those grey areas. For GJJ etc I think this is true but (scoot), for the average BJJ school it'll depend on the lineage just like Judo. You'll find a whole lot of BJJ schools that are comp focused and mostly doing ground, and Judo schools that don't really cover the whole curriculum (which is pretty big) and throwing/falling a lot (and ignoring ancient Judo wisdom like the Pudding Guard).

And then you'll find "Goldilocks" schools that do a good mix of both to the right levels. That's the school for me. Not hard to find in 2022 but you have to know what you want.

Kata in Judo afaik are very high level training anyway? Not something youngins spend their time on much.

And was it really eliminated? There are BJJ flowcharts out there showing detailed sequences from guard to submission.

The issue is that stand-up as shown in Judo is a bit overrated and highly venerated for no apparent reason other than people's high regard for Judo itself. When you break things down, Wrestling is simply the superior method in just about every respect, which is why Judo changed its rules to push wrestling out of its art before it completely supplanted it.

When you add BJJ/MMA grappling to that wrestling base, you end up with the butt-scooting and the low entries because those have been shown to be ridiculously effective takedown methods for grappling comps. They're definitely not as effective against a striking opponent, but against a highly skilled wrestler or a judoka, butt-scooting (seated guard) is stupidly effective at shutting down their game. That's why you're seeing what you're seeing in competitive grappling.

In terms of self-defense, I would frankly recommend wrestling over Judo in that department as well. Judo's throws are simply too sophisticated and require a high skill ceiling that forces you into only having a couple of "go-to" throws, whereas I've seen high school wrestlers take people down with a myriad of techniques.

 

[Hanzou]

Kano believed that it was important to learn Tachi-waza (standing techniques) before ne-waza(ground techniques). He also wanted matches to start from standup, not on the knees. This is because HE believed the concepts of judo were best taught (and experienced) in the Tachi-waza phase. For you to decide the natural evolution of judo is to ignore the precepts of its founder is delightfully ignorant, much like your claim kata is useless. In BJJ, no doubt. In Judo? It is one of the pillars of the art.

I didn't decide anything. BJJ as it is now is the natural process of Judo's evolution without interference from either Kano or the IJF. Its a grappling system that absorbs concepts from multiple disciplines and synthesizes them into a workable system. That's pretty much exactly what Kano did when he created Judo in the 19th century. The problem is that he began to purposely interfere with the system because it naturally began to veer in directions he didn't like. This is why we have the system of Judo we have today; A system that doesn't even allow you to grab your partner's pants to throw them regardless of its potential strategic advantage.

What sort of art would Judo have been today if Kano had embraced the Kosen branch instead of pushing for stand-up? What sort of art would Judo have been if leglocks were allowed to be explored rather than banned in the 1920s? What sort of art would Judo have been if wrestling was embraced in competition instead of blocked?

An art that looks A LOT like Bjj.

I certainly understand that Kano wanted his baby to be a certain way, but frankly parents sometimes don't know what's best for their offspring.

To be fair, the Gracies tried to pull this with BJJ as well, but fortunately, the art was too broad and too diverse by that point for them to be able to control its direction in the way they wanted, so now they, like other branches have to go with the art's evolutionary flow.

 

[Alan0354]

The issue is that stand-up as shown in Judo is a bit overrated and highly venerated for no apparent reason other than people's high regard for Judo itself. When you break things down, Wrestling is simply the superior method in just about every respect, which is why Judo changed its rules to push wrestling out of its art before it completely supplanted it.

When you add BJJ/MMA grappling to that wrestling base, you end up with the butt-scooting and the low entries because those have been shown to be ridiculously effective takedown methods for grappling comps. They're definitely not as effective against a striking opponent, but against a highly skilled wrestler or a judoka, butt-scooting (seated guard) is stupidly effective at shutting down their game. That's why you're seeing what you're seeing in competitive grappling.

In terms of self-defense, I would frankly recommend wrestling over Judo in that department as well. Judo's throws are simply too sophisticated and require a high skill ceiling that forces you into only having a couple of "go-to" throws, whereas I've seen high school wrestlers take people down with a myriad of techniques.

I never see Judo put a lot of effort in ground game, sure we learned a little, but we did not practice in sparring. It is proven when being thrown down, that's the beginning only, not the end of the fight.

I would not even think about Judo for self defense. If I were to learn grappling, Wrestling and BJJ would be on top of the list, forget Judo or those chinese stuffs that just Judo.

I am surprised people still don't see ground work after 30 years of dominating the UFC. Like I said many many times, get into the octagon and proof it, don't sit back and pull old videos and armchair quarterbacking.

Man, those chinese wrestling(JUDO) will be KILL, SLAUGHTERED in the octagon. Won't know what hit them. they think it's like in the movie!!! Again, have the balls, get into the octagon. One win speaks a 1000 words, they'll be famous, rich. Stop making excuses.

 

[Hanzou]

I never see Judo put a lot of effort in ground game, sure we learned a little, but we did not practice in sparring. It is proven when being thrown down, that's the beginning only, not the end of the fight.

I would not even think about Judo for self defense. If I were to learn grappling, Wrestling and BJJ would be on top of the list, forget Judo or those chinese stuffs that just Judo.

I am surprised people still don't see ground work after 30 years of dominating the UFC. Like I said many many times, get into the octagon and proof it, don't sit back and pull old videos and armchair quarterbacking.

Man, those chinese wrestling(JUDO) will be KILL, SLAUGHTERED in the octagon. Won't know what hit them. they think it's like in the movie!!! Again, have the balls, get into the octagon. One win speaks a 1000 words, they'll be famous, rich. Stop making excuses.

Well yeah, it's the classic tradition versus just going with what works situation. When you ignore efficiency for tradition/ "honoring the founder" you start running into serious problems because you're ignoring the natural evolution of your fighting style. Stuff like this;

Is highly intuitive and effective. I can teach a student this set up rather quickly and they can effectively use it in a SD situaiton or competition in a month or two of practice. That set up is COMPLETELY banned in Judo practice. You do that in a Judo dojo and you're getting tossed out to the street.

 

[Alan0354]

Well yeah, it's the classic tradition versus just going with what works situation. When you ignore efficiency for tradition/ "honoring the founder" you start running into serious problems because you're ignoring the natural evolution of your fighting style. Stuff like this;

Is highly intuitive and effective. I can teach a student this set up rather quickly and they can effectively use it in a SD situaiton or competition in a month or two of practice. That set up is COMPLETELY banned in Judo practice. You do that in a Judo dojo and you're getting tossed out to the street.

Ha ha, that's why they get their butt whooped and good!!! Not only tradition and all, I have a strong suspicion that they only want moves that are graceful and pretty or have to be SPECIAL. What you show here is UGLY!!! They look down on that. Can you imagine how ugly is sprawing? They rather get killed than to practice the most effective way of take down defense. Rather work on foot work and all that hopelessly can be fast enough to walk away from a simple shoot. Problem is the shoot is so simple and fast that you cannot foot work away that easy. But sprawing is so ugly, like a crab.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wrestling is simply the superior method in just about every respect,

Wrestling is not superior than Judo. Wrestling is just a subset of Judo. Judo has throw and take down. Wrestling only has take down. The throw is hard to train because you have to deal with your opponent's weight. The take down that you don't have to deal with your opponent's weight is much easier to train.

The day when everybody only train pull guard and jump guard, the day that the throwing art will die.

The day when MMA has envolved into "1 against many", or "many against many", the day that the ground game will die.

If you have ever involved with gang fight (many against many), you won't think that gropund game will be that useful.

 

[Alan0354]

Wrestling is not superior than Judo. Wrestling is just a subset of Judo. Judo has throw and take down. Wrestling only has take down. The throw is hard to train because you have to deal with your opponent's weight. The take down that you don't have to deal with your opponent's weight is much easier to train.

The day when everybody only train pull guard and jump guard, the day that the throwing art will die.

Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.

Now, don't make excuses, just fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You do that in a Judo dojo and you're getting tossed out to the street.

Why do they get tossed out?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.

Now, don't make excuses, just fight.

How about just get into a gang fight that "many against many" with no gun? If I send out 3 guys and you send out 3 guys. We meet in a park and have "3 against 3" group fight.

You will quickly find out that "hit and run with mobility" is much more important than the ground skill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.

Now, don't make excuses, just fight.

I think what Wang is saying is like saying. Judo is the book and wrestling is a chapter in that book.

 

[Alan0354]

How about just get into a gang fight that "many against many" with no gun? If I send out 5 guys and you send out 5 guys. We meet in a park and have "5 against 5" game.

Don't talk about me, you keep showing those "catching fish with hands to practice eagle claw". You have the balls, and you believe what you said. Try audition into the octagon. Win some fights, then you'll be famous and earn money.

Do NOT make excuses, if you truly believe your stuffs work, PROOF it.

 

[Alan0354]

I think what Wang is saying is like saying. Judo is the book and wrestling is a chapter in that book.

Yeh, but that chapter is going to whoop his butt.

BAN me, I don't care, this is the kind of mentality that put CMA behind and put us CHinese in shame for being so behind and keep getting our butts kicked instead of be HUMBLE and LEARN.

The worst is keep making EXCUSES. Go win a fight. Don't get your butt kicked. It's a laughing stalk now.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don't talk about me, ... Do NOT make excuses, if you truly believe your stuffs work, PROOF it.

You don't want people to talk about you. But you want others to proof it for you.

Why don't you proof yourself first? Have you ever competed any MA tournament in your life time? What's your MA tournament record?

You keep saying that MMA is everything. I have just indicated to you that if we change the MMA rule into "3 persons fight against each othert", the ground game will no longer be respected.

Here is a video of "many against many".