Chi Sao : Who initiate the move ?

momovt

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Hi everyone :) !

From your point of view who (or what initiate the move/cycle in Chi Sao) ?

We can imagine that the transition from the taan sao to the bong sao is due to a higher pressure of th partner's fook sao...

And then :

1 - What conditions justify the return to the taan position ?
2 - Why the second had to move simultaneously ?

Note : I'm talking about the chisao as it is practice in the Wong Shun Leung Lineage...

Thanks for your feedbacks :) !
 
Note : I'm talking about the chisao as it is practice in the Wong Shun Leung Lineage...

So from this statement should we assume you are looking for responses only from WSL practitioners?
 
So from this statement should we assume you are looking for responses only from WSL practitioners?
I specified WSL Wing Chun to set the context and the way of working. I know that there are differences in the practice of Chi Sao depending on the lineages...
 
I believe the wrist grabbing training is not part of the WC sticky hand training. What happen if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

When you try to break your opponent's wrist grabbing, your opponent can punch you right at that moment (your opponent is 1 step ahead of you). Should you always start with a wrist grabbing first since it's toward your advantage?

grib_wrist.jpg
 
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Wrist grabbing is used in WC. But it's not part of the sticky hand training. Why?
Depends on how you look at it, IMO. Some lineages simply view Laap Sau as being a Taan Sau action. In this way, it can be both and inside and outside hand.

Laap Sau ( 豢 ) means "grabbing hand", not "wrist grab". If the way is blocked, Laap momentarily clears the way while simultaneously hitting (Lin Siu Daai Da). Laap Sau is often thought of as part of a single action and is not considered a stand-alone "hold". It can also be applied to any part of the limb/obstruction.
 
I believe the wrist grabbing training is not part of the WC sticky hand training. What happen if your opponent just grabs on your wrist?

When you try to break your opponent's wrist grabbing, your opponent can punch you right at that moment (your opponent is 1 step ahead of you). Should you always start with a wrist grabbing first since it's toward your advantage?

View attachment 31202
KFW your understanding of Chi Sao training appears to be incomplete. Chi does have wrist grabbing. It usually appears at lower levels of abilities. Callen pointed out Laap sau training which can be looked at as a grab. It's just that normally people dont hold the grab for more than an instant . However you can certainly incorporate wrist grabbing and locking if you want to. Usually the grab is used to create movement,redirection or an opening followed by a strike.

Using your photo the man is in a disadvantage. One thing you learn is forward intent.. If he strikes from the grab she would actually have inside line and strike first. She can huen inside or outside to break grab and strike, she can lop the grab , she can fold the arms. all depending upon the energy of the grabber. These are just some things that can be done the instant you are grabbed. The grabber is at a disadvantage because they have actually committed their energy to holding.

Grabbing is only advantage against someone untrained that tenses up and focus on the grab.
 
You hit them! WC proverb say "if hands are immobilized, kick!"
Ah ....but what if you are fighting a Chimp? He'll also grab your ankles with his hand-like feet! Then he uses his superior strength to spread-eagle you and eat your face!

If a chimp can do that, what about a giant squid?


So clearly Wing Chun is no good. ;)
 
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But seriously, against normal humans who have the same number of limbs (and hands) as you do, when somebody grabs your wrist, they tie up their wrist too. If they grab both your wrists, both their hands are tied up too ...so you cans take advantage by using your legs to attack.

Or, you can use any number of valid techniques to free your hand and hit them. If you maintain forward energy, when you breack their grip, your hand will fly forward, so you hit them first. This is the meaning of the second part of the most famous kuen kuit:

...lat sau jik chung!
 
Ah ....but what if you are fighting a Chimp? He'll also grab your ankles with his hand-like feet! Then he uses his superior strength to spread-eagle you and eat your face!

If a chimp can do that, what about a giant squid?


So clearly Wing Chun is no good. ;)

Chimps? Keep my wifes family out of this.
 
Using your photo the man is in a disadvantage. One thing you learn is forward intent.. If he strikes from the grab she would actually have inside line and strike first.
grib_wrist.jpg


The main purpose of the wrist grabbing is to open your opponent's guard so you can enter. You don't grab your opponent's wrist without a purpose.

When you grab on your opponent's wrist, you want to guide his arm away from your entering path, release your grip, and then punch on his face. The wrist grabbing is only the set up.


 
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I don't really see what you are demonstrating above as a committed "wrist grab" ...rather more like checking and controlling, which is a pretty standard CMA concept (including in Wing Chun). Either way, it looks good to me.

...although TBH, it's a lot tougher to pull off if your opponent doesn't just stand there ...but hey, it's just a demo.
 
I don't really see what you are demonstrating above as a committed "wrist grab" ...rather more like checking and controlling, which is a pretty standard CMA concept (including in Wing Chun). Either way, it looks good to me.

...although TBH, it's a lot tougher to pull off if your opponent doesn't just stand there ...but hey, it's just a demo.
I do this same combo, except to the outside. My first move is the same as the video but stepping outside his lead arm. My second move is also as shown (sometimes with a grab) but to the same arm, leading me to a side/rear position for my punch. Going to the outside prevents the reverse punch or front kick counter.

I have scored this many times in actual matches. I used it successfully in an open tournament a couple of years ago (my first in 46 years) but it seems nowadays punching to the back of the head is not allowed, as well as kicks below the belt. Two wasted (but beautiful) compound attacks. Damn these newfangled rules! Takes all the fun out of tournament sparring.
Ah ....but what if you are fighting a Chimp? He'll also grab your ankles with his hand-like feet! Then he uses his superior strength to spread-eagle you and eat your face!
Now that's a rule set I could get behind.
 
I don't really see what you are demonstrating above as a committed "wrist grab" ...rather more like checking and controlling, which is a pretty standard CMA concept (including in Wing Chun). Either way, it looks good to me.

...although TBH, it's a lot tougher to pull off if your opponent doesn't just stand there ...but hey, it's just a demo.
The wrist grab should never be committed because your opponent's elbow joint is free (he can elbow drops on you). The wrist grab should always be a temporary set up (checking and controlling).

When you try to grab your opponent wrist, you either grab it, or you don't. If you

- grab it, you use it for set up.
- don't grab it (your opponent's arm must be moving), you have opened his guard anyway.

So, a

- hook punch,
- downward parry, and
- wrist grab

is the same set up.

This is also the WC strategy - pass over your opponent's bridge. You either remain contact on your opponent's arm (grab his wrist), or pass on top of his arm (downward parry), you have established a successful entering.

In this video, he used back arm instead (he didn't control his opponent's back arm). I prefer to use leading arm and also control my opponent's back arm.

 
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I do this same combo, except to the outside. My first move is the same as the video but stepping outside his lead arm. My second move is also as shown (sometimes with a grab) but to the same arm, leading me to a side/rear position for my punch. Going to the outside prevents the reverse punch or front kick counter.
You may talk about something like this - switch hands.

- Right hand to the wrist.
- Left hand to the elbow.
- Right hand strike.


 
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