Cheeky Request of this board

[jonah2]

Hi all in the FMA section

I am an American Kenpo student. I am very happy with my path of study in American Kenpo, but am interested in the use of sticks. Thus far in my studies we have trained in empty hand defence against sticks (single) but only a limited number of strikes. I would be interest in learning more about the use of sticks, double sticks in particular. Unfortunately there are no Filipino schools in my area, and even if there was, I could not afford to study two systems. Hence my bold and cheeky request for free advice here

You cheeky ‘b’ I here you say – I know but you cant blame me for trying

My first experience of the use of sticks was via my Kenpo instructor who taught me a pattern using two sticks that I have now found out to be generally called the standard six sinawali.

This is where I would like to commence in the use of sticks, the sinawali patterns. I know there is a damn sight more to learn to be proficient in a weapon art but I consider what I am doing to be a side-line to my main studies rather than a in-depth study. Although I have noticed an interesting link to the use of sinawali with empty hand thus far with blocking and striking.

To my question of this board. I assume there to be loads of sinawali patterns, my research thus far (about a week) has thrown up only a few which I have tried to write down in a manor for refernce which I insert below:

LH = Left Hand ; RH = Right Hand
fh = Fore Hand Strike ; bh = Back Hand Strike
(ft) = Follow through strike ; (rb) = rebound back strike

THREE COUNT

Start
RH chamber at right soulder
LH chamber under right arm
1
RH fh high
2
LH bh low
RH loop behind head to chamber at right shoulder
3
RH fh high
LH chamber at left shoulder
4
LH fh high
RH chamber under left arm
5
RH bh low
LH loop behind head to chamber at left shoulder
6
LH fh high
RH chamber at right shoulder
Repeat from 1

FOUR COUNT

Start
RH chamber at right soulder
LH chamber at left shoulder
1
RH fh high (ft)
LH chamber at left shoulder
2
RH bh low (rb)
3
RH bh high (ft)
4
RH fh low (rb)
5
LH fh high (ft)
RH chamber at righ shoulder
6
LH bh low (rb)
7
LH bh high (ft)
8
LH fh low (rb)
Repeat from 1

SIX COUNT (standard)

Start
RH chamber at right soulder
LH chamber under right arm
1
RH fh high (ft)
2
LH bh low (ft)
RH chamber at left shoulder
3
RH bh high (rb)
LH chamber at left shoulder
4
LH fh high (ft)
RH chamber under left arm
5
RH bh low (ft)
LH chamber at right shoulder
6
LH bh high (rb)
RH chamber at right shoulder
Repeat from 1

SIX COUNT (heaven) – As above, all strikes high

SIX COUNT (earth) – As above, all strikes low

TEN COUNT

Start
LH chamber under right arm
RH chamber at right soulder
1
LH bh high (rb)
RH chamber at right shoulder
2
RH fh high (rb)
LH chamber at right shoulder
3
LH bh high (rb)
RH chamber at right shoulder
4
RH fh high (ft)
LH chamber under right arm
5
LH bh high (ft)
RH chamber at left shoulder
6
RH bh high (rb)
LH chamber at left shoulder
7
LH fh high (rb)
RH chamber at left shoulder
8
RH bh high (rb)
LH chamber at left shoulder
9
LH fh high (ft)
RH chamber under left arm
10
RH bh high (ft)
LH chamber at right shoulder
Repeat from 1

Can anyone here advise if these are in fact correct or point me in the direction of more patterns available on the net or other sources.

I cheekily thank this board in advance of helpful comments

Respectful student of the arts, Jonah

**EDIT** sorry the above info was imput as a table but that info was lost in posting. The table was more compact and identified the striking hand and returning hand seperately - oops

 

[arnisador]

Well, a sinawali can't really be 'wrong' so I'd say yes, they're right! The high-high-high, high-low-high, low-low-low versions of the six count sinawali you describe are very standard. In Modern Arnis we do a variant of your four count that goes high RH forehand, low RH backhand, high LH forehand, low LH backhand. It's called single sinawali. This can be done either from the closed position that you describe as a starting position, or the open position (each stick on its corresponding shoulder). But there are so many sinawalis that we could go on forever with them!

One pattern I commonly see through JKD schools is to do start from a closed position and do a high RH forehand abaniqo (wrist-whipping strike with the flat of the blade), high RH backhand abaniqo, high RH forehand abaniqo, followed by a (regular) high LH backhand strike and a (regular) high RH backhand strike, ending in the closed position on the left side; then repeat with the LH. Then vary it by doing a high-low-high series of abaniqos, low-high-low, low-low-low; then put it all together (high-high-high, strike, strike; high-low-high, strike, strike; low-high-low, strike, strike; low-low-low, strike, strike). You can also vary the strikes to be low then high rather than both high.

Once you get good at any of these, remember to move about--don't just stand there! Circle, drop to one knee, step up onto a chair for a minute, etc. Also try them empty-hand (palm-to-palm), or with one stick and one empty hand or short stick.

For many sinawalis, your rhythm should be such that if a person closes his or her eyes, he or she shouldn't be able to tell where you are in the sinawali by the pattern of the clicks. Also, watch out for "windshield washing"--that is, moving the sticks very close to your body like windshield wiper blades rather than out where they can make contact with your partner's stick. By the same token, though, don't sweat the occasional failure to hit sticks.

Do you have a partner, or are you doing these in the air or against a bag or something?

 

[jonah2]

Do you have a partner, or are you doing these in the air or against a bag or something?

Firstly thank you for your reply and interesting links to other discussions.

At present (only really been practicing for about 2 weeks) I have made my own stick out of cut up broom handles, these are alot heavier than the ones I used when my instuctor showed me the first pattern. I think I prefer the heavy ones cause it makes me work harder, When I switch back to light ones the speed increases dramatically even at my novice stage.

I am practicing mainly in the air to get the sequencing and timings right although I cant resist wacking stuff with them. The technique is completely different with the reistance but I'm getting used to it. I will hopefully train harder with others when I get a bit more profficient.

I also currently doing some build up for my wrists and forearms to make things easier. My forearms aiked abit after the first day of using the broom handles. mind you I was at it for over 3 hours

Again thanks for your reply and advice - looking forward to more. i assume there are drills for 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, 9 etc counts as well but I suppose, like any type of form they are made up of basic strikes that you can put together in any order. I also assume that there are more than just the fore hand or backhand strikes such as thrusts and jabs with both ends of the stick and presumably blocks / parrys and locks with the sticks as well as pure strikes.

jonah

 

[arnisador]

What I think of as sinawali doesn't have blocks/parries/locks/etc., except in so far as a strike can be a block. Each person does the same thing in a pattern. We certainly have two-person, one-or-two stick drills that work those other techniques, but I wouldn't call them sinawalis. In Modern Arnis we practice many of those techniques out of solo baston which is a single stick version of single sinwali (or maybe single sinawali is a double stick version of solo baston).

Practicing with heavier sticks is common advice, but especially with abaniqo and hirada (a certain circular strike) techniques you can hurt your wrists if you're not ready for it. For actually doing a sinawali with someone else, though, consider rattan.

I think the lowest count sinawali I know has 3 counts, of which there are many variations. From there I've seen individual patterns that go as high as 12 or so counts (plus the occasional one that goes longer, becoming in effect a mini two-person kata). Most of the ones I know are symmetric in some sense, though a few of them have a handedness (e.g., a four count sinawali that does the high-high-high of Heaven Six but retracts on the third strike, then adds a fourth high strike to end up chambered on the same side that you started on). I prefer symmetric ones. I've seen a few that use a position where your arms are crossed, sticks roughly parallel to the ground with right hand on left bicep and left hand under right bicep (like a person standing with arms folded on their chest). I don't like that position.

There are certainly sinawalis with thrusts, figure 8 strikes (ocho-ocho), butt end (punyo) strikes, strikes that are sword-based that wouldn't make much sense with a stick, and so on. (Note, terminology varies from FMA to FMA!) I like ones that use the figure 8, actually. Usually with the thrusts the sticks don't click--you both do a thrust in the air, toward your partner (but often aiming outside the body for safety). Of course, it all depends on what's taught in the particular art. In Modern Arnis we traditionally have a relatively small number of sinawalis (single, Heaven Six, Standard Six that we call double, and Earth Six that we call reverse), plus a related drill we call redonda. In JKD (where I study it) we focus on Heaven, Standard, and Earth Six plus the kob kob.

Since you're working on your own, don't overlook the amarra (armor) patterns, which are single (usually) or double stick patterns designed to protect the body, or the simple concept of carenza (twirling, i.e. shadow boxing with the stick). If you work with a partner, there are many single and double stick patterns that are not techniqcally sinawalis but that may give you some of the same benefits, plus getting in the blocking etc. you mentioned (e.g. sumbrada, called six-count drill in Modern Arnis). (I would be remiss if I didn't mention that, as in so many arts, our blocks are ideally strikes themselves.) There's a lot out there!

 

[jonah2]

Arnisador,

Thanks very much for your detailed responces - all a bit much to take on board immediately but it gives me some more areas to research

Can you direct me to some written out material or videos to learn more from (free ones if possible)

Again thanks for your time - I owe you a favour my friend, if I can be of assistance in anything

jonah

 

[arnisador]

You're very welcome! I'm not sure where to find sinawali-specific videos, though. You can almost certainly find the Complete Sinawali book at your local bookstore--I just found it at Borders a few weeks ago--and flip through it. It's about a whole system named Sinawali, though, not just the drills.

Ask at FMATalk.com (a MartialTalk affiliate) about video clips. Someone there will surely know!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Jonah,

If you can definately pick up the Complete Sinwali book it
is very good. Sounds like you are having some fun starting
to work with your sticks. Remember though, that Hardwood
sticks sometimes break when you are banging them against
something else that is hard. When a hardwood stick breaks
they generally send jagged pieces flying around. That is why
most stick oriented arts prefer the rattan sticks because they splinter
instead of shatter. Just some food for thought. Good luck and
keep training.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[arnisador]

Apollo posted a list of FMA video links on FMATalk, one of which is to Rick Manglinong's "Super Sinawali" and is hosted right here on MartialTalk:
http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/bill_rick03.mov

This is an unusually long sinawali! I think this is the same one, demonstrated by two MartialTalk members:
http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/bob3.mov

 

[jonah2]

You're very welcome! I'm not sure where to find sinawali-specific videos, though. You can almost certainly find the Complete Sinawali book at your local bookstore--I just found it at Borders a few weeks ago--and flip through it. It's about a whole system named Sinawali, though, not just the drills.

Ask at FMATalk.com (a MartialTalk affiliate) about video clips. Someone there will surely know!

Sir,
Thanks for the link to the other site - have to keep my eye on that one.

Just checked out a few sourses for the book on line and seems to be an ecconomic source of information and a few reviews seem good. I will be getting a copy shortly. Thanks for the direction.

Im trying to get hold of a digital video camera at the moment to record my progress - may be I can post it for some critisism here soon

Thanks also for the other links to video clips - I recognised a few of the strike patterns (not many) the rest was a bit of a blur but makes me want to learn more.

I'll try to keep you posted of my progress - By responding to my original post you have un-knowingly signed up to be my virtual instructor.

Jonah

 

[jonah2]

Jonah,

If you can definately pick up the Complete Sinwali book it
is very good. Sounds like you are having some fun starting
to work with your sticks. Remember though, that Hardwood
sticks sometimes break when you are banging them against
something else that is hard. When a hardwood stick breaks
they generally send jagged pieces flying around. That is why
most stick oriented arts prefer the rattan sticks because they splinter
instead of shatter. Just some food for thought. Good luck and
keep training.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Sir,
Thanks for the advice - Theres me thinking a stick was a stick. How wrong could I be. I went down the route of cut-up broom handles because they only cost me 1 pound. If I keep it up I will have to invest in some proper ones. Until then I'll watch out for the breakages. I struck my own soulder last night - the sticks feel pretty solid to me!!

Thanks for the reply

Jonah

 

[jonah2]

Hi everyone here again

Slightly different question

Length of sticks. After watching some clips on the net and researching buying some sticks I have noticed a huge difference in the length of sticks but all being used in the same way.

I have been told that the method of measuring them is the distance between your armpit to the palm of your hand. Is this correct!

I have cut my home made ones at 27 1/2" (70cm). Slightly longer than the method above but somehow (dont know why) that method felt too short.

jonah

 

[arnisador]

This varies quite a bit from art to art, plus personal preference. Usually in Modern Arnis we use a stick that's around 26" long, give or take 2". But some styles use longer sticks. In sparring the extra reach could matter, but for what you're doing a differene of a few inches here or there means nothing. If 27.5" feels good to you, use it!

 

[JPR]

Stick length is sometimes set by the bladed weapon you are emulating (if your are at all). A bolo, barong, pinute, espada, and kampilan all differ in length and regional usage, therefore a style may prefer a stick length based upon that.

One thing that I have found is to make the stick length fit you (at least in the beginning). When my children started training kali with me their biggest challenge at first was simply dealing with a stick that was longer than their arm! Once I cut down a pair for each of them, they could actually start focusing upon the training and not the awkward, off balance feeling they had with the larger sticks.

Stick diameter also varies from style / praticioner's preference / training goal. Lighter / thinner sticks allow you longer training / focus on precise movement while thicker sticks tend to help you build strength and endurance.

As with so many things in FMA, there is no final, definitive answer.

Jerry

 

[jonah2]

JPR,

Thanks for the reply - I didnt want to get too used to my home made ones if they were the wrong size. Its harder to undo mistakes than get them right in the first place.

Anyway thanks for confirming this, I can go on safe in the knowledge I'm not starting too incorrectly.

jonah

 

[jonah2]

Hello FMA section again

OK heres my next question

How important is your grip of the stick

I have messed about with a couple different grips to see what the most comfortable was

What is the correct grip or does it change dependant on the type of strike. I can quite see that a follow through type stike may require a tighter grip than a rebounding type strike.

I have found that I have more flexibility with a fist type grip with only light grip of the last two little fingers, but, I seem to gain more accuracy by extending my thumb along the shank of the stick

What are your thoughts

jonah

 

[arnisador]

I would advise against extending your thumb along the stick. Instead, guide it by imagining it has a blade, as if it were a sword, and striving to hit with that blade area each time. Apart from that, arts differ in how high up from the bottom of the stick they generally hold the stick, but most will use a full fist on it (unlike in Kendo/Kumdo, where you principally grab with only some of the fingers). We usually discourage people from opening the hand, as is so tempting when twirling the stick--you should keep a full grip on it at all times.

How hard to grab? Experience will teach you how to grab hard enough that the stick isn't blasted out of your hands by impact, but not so hard that it's tiring. If you're not losing the stick when you hit things or when you swing hard in the air (i.e., the dreaded "solo disarm") then your grip is probably OK.

 

[jonah2]

I would advise against extending your thumb along the stick.

Ok I'll tuck the thumb down then - thanks.

Instead, guide it by imagining it has a blade, as if it were a sword, and striving to hit with that blade area each time.

OOHHH. So a back hand strike should impact using the same area on the stick that a forehand does.

I think i've been doing the backhand strike sort of opposite to the fore hand. In terms of imagining the stick as a blade i've been hitting the back hand with "the blunt edge"

DOH - back to the drawing board on that one, but thanks for the instruction

Apart from that, arts differ in how high up from the bottom of the stick they generally hold the stick, but most will use a full fist on it.

At present I am holding the sticks with a whole hands distance up the stick (about 4"). I am assuming this end of this stick can be used for striking (a'la riffle butt whipping) or trapping of arms, neck, other weapons etc.

As always sir, thanks for you input. It is much appreciated.

jonah
(hopefully going to borrow a camera over the weekend to tape my progress so far - should be interesting to see myself or how bad I really am.)

 

[arnisador]

If you get a video clip, please post it! Don't be shy.

As a rule, when using a stick as a stick in the FMA we rarely hit with what would be the flat of the blade (that is, the flat side of a sword), or with what would be the belly of the blade (that is, the middle section of the stick as opposed to the end). There are exceptions; in particular, the abaniqo strikes with the flat of the blade in a sort-of backhanded motion (but not moving like a Karate-style backhand). Almost surely you want to be striking with the "blade" each time. It's better body mechanics for a stronger strike, and also you're less likely to disarm yourself. (Compare the position of the stick in your hand on the fore-handed or back-handed flat of the blade strike to an escape from a wrist hold--the stick can come out from between your fingers on impact in the same way that you pull your wrist out between your opponent's fingers when escaping the hold.) There are other reasons for this as well. It's a common problem as people try to speed up their sinawalis that they do so by taking shortcuts that give them less effective strikes, and this is commonly one of those shortcuts people end up accidentally taking.

In Modern Arnis the usual advice is to hold the stick two finger-widths from the end. Other arts hold it much higher, and everyone must find where they're comfortable. I think 4" may be a little high at first and I'd encourage you to move a little closer to the end, but it isn't a problem and there are certainly many FMAs where that would be considered fine. Some arts make great use of that stick length at the butt end, others less so. There are sinawalis where you strike those short ends together in a hooking sort of strike, and for that you'd probably want a fist's length of stick there.

You're most welcome for these comments. I am glad to hear they have helped you! Soon you'll be ready to add footwork.

 

[jonah2]

As a rule, when using a stick as a stick in the FMA we rarely hit with what would be the flat of the blade (that is, the flat side of a sword), or with what would be the belly of the blade (that is, the middle section of the stick as opposed to the end)......Almost surely you want to be striking with the "blade" each time. It's better body mechanics for a stronger strike, and also you're less likely to disarm yourself. (Compare the position of the stick in your hand on the fore-handed or back-handed flat of the blade strike to an escape from a wrist hold--the stick can come out from between your fingers on impact in the same way that you pull your wrist out between your opponent's fingers when escaping the hold.) .....

Cuh - obvious when you really examin it - amazing what you don't fully examin when you first start learning something. Mistake number two from me was that i;'ve been using the belly (well 3/4 of the way up the stick) for the strikes. Much a kin to the meat of a cricket bat. But I can see the advantage of using the tips as this is moving at a higher velocity. Only disadvantage I suppose is that there is a less margin for error in depth using the tips, but if your fighting another with sticks you need a greater distance from his weapons also.

You're most welcome for these comments. I am glad to hear they have helped you! Soon you'll be ready to add footwork.

I've already started adding footwork. I dont see the point of staying stationary unless you are built like a brick out house. I suppose the advantage of already studying another art (particularly Kenpo) before picking up the sticks is that stances, and transitional movements whilst still striking, are fairly well established.

jonah

 

[arnisador]

Honestly, in doing sinawalis I think that most people end up hitting further down the stick than they do when they are just taking a regular strike at people. In having to click sticks each time, it's natural. But yes, the tip will give a stronger impact, and depending on the strike and how it falls on the person's body, the edge on the end of the stick may actually cut (but I wouldn't try for that effect).

Mentioning a bat brings up a good point that not everything that is vaguely stick-like has the same properties. Try this with a pair of axe handles some day (if your wrists are strong enough--you really can injure your wrists with heavy sticks). Techniques change subtly for sticks vs. swords vs. bats, etc. On the other hand, the basic techniques work very well for a wide variety of weapons (we say "It's all the same" although of course it isn't exactly the same) and so learning these ideas and movements has great generality.

A Kenpoist (or possibly Kajukenbo-ist?) joined the local FMA class in which I am studying this week. He immediately dropped into a deep horse stance for the Heaven Six sinawali, and I had trouble getting him up out of it! I don't know what footwork you're doing, but usually you want to be light on your feet. Often we'll go low for a low strike, especially in Earth Six sinawali, but always light on the feet and mobile, moving a round, circling, changing direction, and trying to get some hip into those strikes. This mobility issue was hard for me initially as I came from a traditional Okinwan Karate background.