$ Charging black belt students $

[Headhunter]

i may be mistaken but it seems to me there is a lot of short time training and exchange with MMA type schools. if a fighter wants to go over to American Top team for a short time to work on some aspect of his game, he can do that. then come back to his regular camp. i cant imagine them saying "well you can only train here if your a permenant student and sign this one year contract"
i think the exchange of skills is invaluable. but yet more traditional schools push it away all the time.

In my opinion I think it's to do with the old attitude of keeping things secret. Like the Chinese not wanting to teach westerners Kung fu as it was there secret or a style only being passed on through families.

 

[hoshin1600]

A full-time school can't afford to have a lot of "part time students" who drop in to brush up on their skills a few times a year for $20. They have rent, utilities, taxes, liability insurance, payroll, etc, that they have to pay no matter what, and they need students who are going to sign up as a regular student & pay them reliably every month, on time, and come in every week for months or years.

Also: no matter what belt a student has, they still require instructor attention, curriculum, lesson planning, mat space, heat/AC, liability coverage, etc. That all has value, and that value doesn't decrease just because the person has a black belt.

I'm sorry but I believe this type of thinking is very short sighted and shallow.

A full-time school can't afford to have a lot of "part time students" who drop in to brush up on their skills a few times a year for $20.

This makes no logical sense at all. If you do not allow part time students, what do you get from them......NOTHING!!! They are not training full time for a reason and insistence they commit as full time is not going to change that reason. You will receive nothing from them. Having BB students on the floor increases the excitement of the room and the reputation of the school. It makes white belts want to train more by actually seeing what they can someday achieve. Having BB on the floor will actually increase you student retention.

 

[skribs]

I'm sorry but I believe this type of thinking is very short sighted and shallow.

This makes no logical sense at all. If you do not allow part time students, what do you get from them......NOTHING!!! They are not training full time for a reason and insistence they commit as full time is not going to change that reason. You will receive nothing from them. Having BB students on the floor increases the excitement of the room and the reputation of the school. It makes white belts want to train more by actually seeing what they can someday achieve. Having BB on the floor will actually increase you student retention.

I've had people walk into our all-adult class on Saturday as a yellow belt, see a room full of red and black belts, and turn around and leave, because they're intimidated by the class.

It sounds like you think of yourself as a treat, that when you show up everyone should feel privileged they get the 4th degree hoshin! It makes your post come off as pretty arrogant (to me).

There's a site I go to called Notalwaysright, which has stories of customers, mostly from retail. There's a lot of customers that pull the "I've been a loyal customer for X years" bit to try and get free stuff against company policy. There's also working stories from artists who get commissioned to work for free because "it can add to your portfolio". This is honestly starting to sound more and more like one of those stories.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've had people walk into our all-adult class on Saturday as a yellow belt, see a room full of red and black belts, and turn around and leave, because they're intimidated by the class.

It sounds like you think of yourself as a treat, that when you show up everyone should feel privileged they get the 4th degree hoshin! It makes your post come off as pretty arrogant (to me).

There's a site I go to called Notalwaysright, which has stories of customers, mostly from retail. There's a lot of customers that pull the "I've been a loyal customer for X years" bit to try and get free stuff against company policy. There's also working stories from artists who get commissioned to work for free because "it can add to your portfolio". This is honestly starting to sound more and more like one of those stories.

He's not trying to get anything free. He's wishing there was an option that actually exists in many places. I'm not a fan of annual contracts, period. And certainly as a requirement for training.

And I do think it's a treat to have a BB on the mats. I have more tools to work with when I teach and have any experienced students available - the more experienced, the more tools I have to work with. As a student (before I started teaching), I really liked it when I got paired with someone of higher rank, especially a BB. It was intimidating, but always enlightening (even the arrogant ones, and there were a few of those).

Of course, you're right that a new (or even new-ish) student can be intimidated by a room full of higher ranks. But adding a couple of BB to a room of mixed ranks isn't likely to produce that intimidation.

 

[hoshin1600]

I've had people walk into our all-adult class on Saturday as a yellow belt, see a room full of red and black belts, and turn around and leave, because they're intimidated by the class.

It sounds like you think of yourself as a treat, that when you show up everyone should feel privileged they get the 4th degree hoshin! It makes your post come off as pretty arrogant (to me).

There's a site I go to called Notalwaysright, which has stories of customers, mostly from retail. There's a lot of customers that pull the "I've been a loyal customer for X years" bit to try and get free stuff against company policy. There's also working stories from artists who get commissioned to work for free because "it can add to your portfolio". This is honestly starting to sound more and more like one of those stories.

im not trying to get anything for free,,,,,i do wish you would read peoples posts before commenting on them. for me personally i am not trying to do anything or get anything or train anywhere. i was only using my self as an example to demonstrate a point (people tend to do that you know).

im sorry your school is so "soft" that people get scared because of the color of a piece of fabric....maybe they should be in therapy rather than a karate school.

while you may think my posts are arrogant or something .....that fine your entitled to your opinion...i dont mind.
but i will reply your post come off as having some kind of deep seated resentment issues that need to be resolved. i am not asking for anything, i am making a suggestion for a buisness practice. sorry you dont see it that way. but its your error for reading more into things then are truly there.

 

[skribs]

im sorry your school is so "soft" that people get scared because of the color of a piece of fabric....maybe they should be in therapy rather than a karate school.

Yep. That's helping take away the "arrogant" vibe I'm getting from you.

 

[CB Jones]

The school my son goes to allows you to pay per month or a discounted contract if you want to attend classes. You also can sign up for the black belt club which gives you access to the Dojo 24-7. Doesn't charge BB if they aren't attending actual classes or if they are invited to assist in class.

 

[WaterGal]

This makes no logical sense at all. If you do not allow part time students, what do you get from them......NOTHING!!!

I know. They also don't use up any valuable resources or distract from the class. I don't mind letting a former student who moved away come back on a visit and take a class for old time's sake, and we don't charge them. But that's a personal favor, because we like & miss them. It doesn't help the business any.

They are not training full time for a reason and insistence they commit as full time is not going to change that reason.

Neither is them doing a drop-in class.

Having BB students on the floor increases the excitement of the room and the reputation of the school. It makes white belts want to train more by actually seeing what they can someday achieve. Having BB on the floor will actually increase you student retention.

Sure. Having some of our active, current black belt students in a mixed-belt class is great for that. Having a guy there who quit 6 months ago and hasn't trained since... is not.

 

[WaterGal]

Having those part-time/drop-in students doesn't have much marginal impact on costs, and brings in more money than not having them. Having too many could be disruptive to the flow of a curriculum, but if they are not too awfully rusty when they come in, one or two at a time shouldn't much change the plan.

We'll occasionally let former students who moved away (not necessarily black belts) drop in for free, just because it's nice to see them. But it's usually kind of a hassle, because they almost always want to chat about The Old Days and "whatever happened to so-and-so", and having them there distracts the actual paying students. It's not something I'd want to make a general policy. Frankly, and maybe this sounds crass and commercialistic, but I'd rather focus our resources on wowing our dedicated long-term families that come to class 3x a week for years and pay us $300/mo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We'll occasionally let former students who moved away (not necessarily black belts) drop in for free, just because it's nice to see them. But it's usually kind of a hassle, because they almost always want to chat about The Old Days and "whatever happened to so-and-so", and having them there distracts the actual paying students. It's not something I'd want to make a general policy. Frankly, and maybe this sounds crass and commercialistic, but I'd rather focus our resources on wowing our dedicated long-term families that come to class 3x a week for years and pay us $300/mo.

Ah, I see your point. We tend to go out for beer afterward to do the "old days" talking. Actually, there aren't a lot of folks at the school who were there when I was there, so not so much of that - just more sharing ideas about the art, differences in approach, etc. When I go to a school to visit, I'm either a student or a visiting instructor (sometimes a visiting assisting instructor). If I'm a student, I'm just there to learn what I can or to be a throwing dummy for someone preparing for a test. But I'm there for whatever the instructor of that class wants me to be, not to disrupt the class. If someone came in not taking that approach, it would cause a problem.

 

[hoshin1600]

I know. They also don't use up any valuable resources or distract from the class. I don't mind letting a former student who moved away come back on a visit and take a class for old time's sake, and we don't charge them. But that's a personal favor, because we like & miss them. It doesn't help the business any.

Neither is them doing a drop-in class.

Sure. Having some of our active, current black belt students in a mixed-belt class is great for that. Having a guy there who quit 6 months ago and hasn't trained since... is not.

from what you posted it sounds like your experience in martial arts has been very different than my own
and what i am reading in your posts is that you are alluding to several contentions. i would like to unpack all of it and dig deeper into your opinion. would you be willing to do that and answer some questions?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

From the follow-up it sounds like your question isn't really about black belts but about the option for having drop-in mat fees available for people who aren't current members of the school.

That actually makes it a more sensible question. Depending on the school, "black belt" can mean anything from "someone who showed up twice a week for 2 years and has a handle on the basics" to "someone who worked their *** off for 10-15 years and is a legitimate expert in the art." Any rule which covered both might as well cover everyone else as well.

I'm personally in favor of allowing drop-ins. I've never found them to be disruptive. In my experience, that option is mainly used by visitors from out of town or from other schools. I don't see why it would be a problem for to have it as an option for formerly active in-town students, though. I do understand why a school owner would set the fees high enough so as to encourage semi-regular in-town students to sign up for the normal monthly program rather than paying per class.

 

[skribs]

From the follow-up it sounds like your question isn't really about black belts but about the option for having drop-in mat fees available for people who aren't current members of the school.

That actually makes it a more sensible question. Depending on the school, "black belt" can mean anything from "someone who showed up twice a week for 2 years and has a handle on the basics" to "someone who worked their *** off for 10-15 years and is a legitimate expert in the art." Any rule which covered both might as well cover everyone else as well.

I'm personally in favor of allowing drop-ins. I've never found them to be disruptive. In my experience, that option is mainly used by visitors from out of town or from other schools. I don't see why it would be a problem for to have it as an option for formerly active in-town students, though. I do understand why a school owner would set the fees high enough so as to encourage semi-regular in-town students to sign up for the normal monthly program rather than paying per class.

Our school does have one class in a different art that's pay-per-class, and sometimes we don't have class because I'm the only student. We have some students that will miss months at a time because they're not committed to studying the art. If you have an open-door policy then people might take you up on that offer and do what everyone does in January at the gym.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I do understand why a school owner would set the fees high enough so as to encourage semi-regular in-town students to sign up for the normal monthly program rather than paying per class.

This is an important point (one Hoshin made earlier). The mat fee is usually high enough that it's not worth paying it 5 or 6 times a month, to avoid a la carte purchasing, unless that's intended to be an option. So, if monthly fees are $100, mat fee is usually at least $20.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Our school does have one class in a different art that's pay-per-class, and sometimes we don't have class because I'm the only student.

Is it only pay-per-class or is there also a monthly option? If both are options, then is the per-class fee high enough that someone who was planning on training regularly would choose to pay the monthly fee instead?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Our school does have one class in a different art that's pay-per-class, and sometimes we don't have class because I'm the only student. We have some students that will miss months at a time because they're not committed to studying the art. If you have an open-door policy then people might take you up on that offer and do what everyone does in January at the gym.

I've always offered students the option of paying per-class (the mat fee is about 20% of the regular fee). They even have the option of paying by mat fee for a given month (an offering that's impractical with a larger program). They've only ever used that option when they would be out half of the month for travel, and it has never had an impact that could be tracked back to that payment option. Of course, it might work out differently in different areas/situations. There's some good evidence that people are more likely to come to a class they've already paid for (better attendance) and an automatic payment (which would have to be regular monthly, etc.) makes people less likely to stop paying because money is tight for a single month (better retention). I've just not seen that with my small program.

 

[Balrog]

If they teach then they shouldn't be charged but if they're just there to train then yes they should be charged just like anyone else.

Agreed. If they are in our legacy program, we offset their dues by a prorated amount based on the number of classes they teach. It's actually possible for them to make money instead of pay money; no problem with that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Agreed. If they are in our legacy program, we offset their dues by a prorated amount based on the number of classes they teach. It's actually possible for them to make money instead of pay money; no problem with that.

How is that calculated, as a percentage of standard fees?

 

[hoshin1600]

@Tony Dismukes
if the mat fee or month to month is high enough (ie the contract amount is low enough) then most will opt for the contracted price and commitment. but the mat fee has draw backs if you dont use contracts. i never did and never will. what i found is when people know they will be going on vacation or some other reason instead of paying the monthly dues will opt to pay a mat fee. so what happens is students will alternate between paying a full month and then just pay a mat fee for the month they wont make it often enough. so prices have to be calculated just right if this is a hindrance to the dojo.

but my over all thought was the drop out rate at black belt and thus why i posted. the common thought is that out of 10 thousand sign ups only one makes it to black belt and 50% of those are gone by the next rank. i will admit this is the stat that is found on line and probably has no actual statistical evidence. my own experience however is that black belt is a major drop off point and in many cases now with MMA those students who continue training who got their traditional BB transfer over to an MMA style training like BJJ. why not have an option for them to move on (because its going to happen whether you like it or not) and still retain them albeit on a part time basis? this doesnt have to be a black and white / one or the other issue. i see it as a result of a kind of jealousy..."if your not commited to train here 100 % then your not allowed to be here"
that has been my experience in traditional MA. if the instructor found out you trained elsewhere you were looked down upon. the current trend is to have more than one style under one roof. many students take advantage of that opportunity and will train in 2 things. the stand alone traditional school is at a disadvantage. i think attitudes are changing and cross training is more common. however it seems clear by the back lash on this thread that the old attitude is alive and well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@Tony Dismukes
if the mat fee or month to month is high enough (ie the contract amount is low enough) then most will opt for the contracted price and commitment. but the mat fee has draw backs if you dont use contracts. i never did and never will. what i found is when people know they will be going on vacation or some other reason instead of paying the monthly dues will opt to pay a mat fee. so what happens is students will alternate between paying a full month and then just pay a mat fee for the month they wont make it often enough. so prices have to be calculated just right if this is a hindrance to the dojo.

but my over all thought was the drop out rate at black belt and thus why i posted. the common thought is that out of 10 thousand sign ups only one makes it to black belt and 50% of those are gone by the next rank. i will admit this is the stat that is found on line and probably has no actual statistical evidence. my own experience however is that black belt is a major drop off point and in many cases now with MMA those students who continue training who got their traditional BB transfer over to an MMA style training like BJJ. why not have an option for them to move on (because its going to happen whether you like it or not) and still retain them albeit on a part time basis? this doesnt have to be a black and white / one or the other issue. i see it as a result of a kind of jealousy..."if your not commited to train here 100 % then your not allowed to be here"
that has been my experience in traditional MA. if the instructor found out you trained elsewhere you were looked down upon. the current trend is to have more than one style under one roof. many students take advantage of that opportunity and will train in 2 things. the stand alone traditional school is at a disadvantage. i think attitudes are changing and cross training is more common. however it seems clear by the back lash on this thread that the old attitude is alive and well.

I've been daydreaming about finding another instructor or two (hopefully in different disciplines) who also don't have enough time to run a full set of classes, and combine forces to open a school. I have no idea how the pricing would work out, but the ideal would be for all students to have inexpensive access to cross-training, and for there to be specific classes designed for mixing students among disciplines.

Off the original topic, I think, but not nearly my worst swerve.