Charge the customer, not the prostitute

[Ceicei]

In many places, the prostitute is charged with the crime, not the customer. However, I believe in the USA, the prostitute and the customer can both be charged. The article is an interesting read and gives insight into the laws regarding prostitution / trafficking.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23651087/

- Ceicei

 

[jks9199]

Subject to vagaries of state law, it's generally illegal in the US to solicit sex for money, whether you're offering a service or seeking to be serviced. It's also generally illegal to knowingly facilitate the transaction, to use a motor vehicle to facilitate prostitution (in VA, we can seize the car) and to transport someone for illicit purposes across state lines. Outside of sting operations, which routinely are done in ways that target either the costumer and prostitute, prostitution is not often charged because there are lots of complications (like, for some reason, complaining witnesses often won't testify...). Unless you use a sting operation, it's just really tough to prove the case.

 

[Big Don]

Charge both. Neither activity is legal, therefore, BOTH should be charged

 

[CoryKS]

In many places, the prostitute is charged with the crime, not the customer. However, I believe in the USA, the prostitute and the customer can both be charged. The article is an interesting read and gives insight into the laws regarding prostitution / trafficking.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23651087/

- Ceicei

Ah, yes, the War on Drugs approach.

 

[Sukerkin]

This is one of those times when you have to be careful how you phrase what you mean because it is easy for your points to be misinterpreted.

For the record, I can see that prostitution provides a necessary service but hope that I never have to avail myself of it.

I also concur that the sex 'industry' is at the same time prolific and also dangerous but fail to see how legislation alone can significantly impact upon it unless it is acknowledged as a legitmate business and regulated accordingly.

The old chestnut about whoring and soldiering being the oldest professions (and frequently intermingling) is a truism but it is a sadness that in the 21st century, even in the 1st world, it is the only employment choice available for some women. But it is only a sadness if society as a whole denigrates and despises the role.

For me, because of my religious upbringing, the difference between a woman who charges for sex and one who has sex after dinner and a movie is very clear in terms of my moral compass. But how different is it really? If both women are chosing to do this then, intellectually, there is no difference - both benefit financially, neither is harmed and neither is committed to anything further.

I have personaly known women who have been 'on the game' for a source of income who were not part of the 'stable' of some pimp. For them, the model I noted above applies i.e. they needed money and made use of their assets to obtain it. Indeed, one really did find it empowering that men would pay to spend time with her; as there is no accounting for psychology that is not our own, I would not presume to judge her.

Sadly, the real world situation is seldom so clear. Once someone, usually a man, turns this transaction into something that benefits him then the whole thing darkens and becomes unacceptable - or at least it does to me.

On topic (at last ), the Swedish laws on this are ridiculous and fail to 'protect' those whom the laws were allegedly designed for (regardless of what the PR tried to say). The Dutch approach is more sensible but has been circumvented by organised crime, presenting the issue of crime within business that occasionally shows up in many fields - the difference here being that the 'product' are human beings, which changes things somewhat.

What can be done to bring some sense of justice and order to this?

To be honest I don't know. On the one side, I actually find it abhorent that a governement will try to prevent a person making use of what assets they have to earn a living - if a womans choices are to charge for sex or not eat what right has a government to stop her? On the other I know that the 'Pretty Woman' ideal does not often exist in the grimy underbelly of our societies and the government has an obligation to try and protect those that are exploited in a trade that is all too often tawdry and violent.

Is it common sense to posit that the answer is to make the 'Pimping' aspect illegal? That would leave women free to pursue this avenue without legal hampering if they so desired whilst removing a good deal of the seediness and danger that is currently attached.

It's not a perfect answer as the women will still be in harms way from those men who get their kicks from domination and harming but it would at least act to remove that part of the business I find most abhorent i.e. the fact that pimping is human trafficing of the most debased kind (I'm embarassed that my reactionary right wing side comes out on this issue and am ashamed that my solution is what I term the "38 pence cure" (that being how much it used to cost to hand-load a pistol round)).

 

[MA-Caver]

In a way the Swedes are right because it is sometimes the only means of income for the women who choose this profession. But it is a moral issue at the same time.
But far as I know, the "johns" get busted right along with the prostitute if the police catches them in the act. Otherwise seeing the girl solicit the sex before the john decides to buy, the police can't say yeah, arrest both of them... she is just talking about selling the same as a vendor in the street, he on the other hand hasn't decided to buy.

But it does go both ways... ask and answer... "do you wanna?" then "yes/no" and this is spoken by either sex. There are male prostitutes for women as well as same sex prostitutes.

The women out there working the streets are often times without much choice... especially if they work for a hard-line pimp. Maybe sounds stereotyped but they DO exist. Efforts need to be focused just as much on the pimps/madams as it is with the workers. Bust a prostitute and the pimp/madam just finds another to take the empty space.
So actually there are THREE people that need to be arrested not just two or the one.

 

[tellner]

I'd go with the system that a number of countries, mostly European, have.

Prostitution is legal and regulated.
Being a pimp or madame gets you jail time.
The workers get health checks and education.
They can call the police when customers cause problems.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'd go with the system that a number of countries, mostly European, have.

Prostitution is legal and regulated.
Being a pimp or madame gets you jail time.
The workers get health checks and education.
They can call the police when customers cause problems.

Well those are all good but problem is is the religious might here in this country wouldn't stand for it. Not just from one particular church either. Many various churches would raise a big hue and cry over the broad legalization of such a venture.
True it's legal in Nevada but strictly regulated and has been for years. Thus it's marginally tolerated by the rest of the country as such. If you were to want to have it legal in other states, there I believe you would face fierce opposition.

 

[newGuy12]

Well those are all good but problem is is the religious might here in this country wouldn't stand for it. Not just from one particular church either. Many various churches would raise a big hue and cry over the broad legalization of such a venture.
True it's legal in Nevada but strictly regulated and has been for years. Thus it's marginally tolerated by the rest of the country as such. If you were to want to have it legal in other states, there I believe you would face fierce opposition.

I have to say that I am inclined to agree with Tellner. *IF* this kind of thing is going to go on, *THEN* it would be preferable to have it done in a more *professional* way, none of this "moonshine" approach, but a more regulated way.

There has always been prostitutes, even in the days of the Talmud, they are mentioned, are they not? Its not going to go away. *IF* there is someway to elevate their stature in life so that they will not be prey to REALLY BAD people (see Sukerin's post above for what I mean), then, I say, that would be a good thing.

 

[tellner]

newguy, I think the term you're looking for is "werewolf bait". How often do they get beat up, raped, and murdered? How often do they just "disappear"?

I knew a woman in college who had worked as a prostitute in Vancouver, BC. It wasn't the job she would have chosen at the time, but it put food on the table for a young woman with a child to raise. The hours were flexible. The pay and working conditions were - as she put it - "better than doing shift work at the cannery". Most of all she didn't have to worry about health insurance, and she called the police when customers got violent or crazy. And she didn't have to pay them off in sexual favors.

 

[myusername]

Interesting discussion and some very good points. I suppose my beliefs around this topic lean towards arresting the customer and the pimps,madams, human traffickers and not the sex workers.

Through my job working on a drug and alcohol ward the sex workers I have cared for have always presented as very vulnerable. Many have abusive partners who pimp them out. Most do not want to be sex workers but it is the only way that they can fund their drug habit. Many have had years of sexual abuse as a child before developing their drug habit and becoming sex workers.

Obviously this will then bias my attitude towards viewing sex workers as an innocent victim being exploited in our society. I recognise that this is a bias as my work does not expose me to sex workers unrelated to drugs, mental illness or abuse. Without exposure to "the happy prostitute" all I can see is the abuse of women. I have also heard of horror stories of human trafficking and women being trapped into sex working through those means.

I'm unsure about whether legalising sex working would decrease the abuse of these women or just make society deem it more acceptable to exploit them. I can see the benefits from the points made in previous posts but in my humble opinion legalising it would not prevent people from continuing to be exploited by abusive pimps or partners and human trafficking will still happen, so what would be the point? Maybe making it illegal to buy sex and illegal to arrange the selling of sex on behalf of another person would be a better a way of dealing with these problems in addition to having the justice system view the sex worker as a victim of a crime rather than a perpertrator. I feel this would afford sex workers more protection from pimps and human traffickers as it would encourage abused women to seek help. Certainly more support is needed rather than punishment.

 

[MA-Caver]

Madam: Sex too hard to sell these days
(full story) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080315/ap_on_fe_st/odd_bordello_blues;_ylt=Ajj3Dgbb6kWma92arfcJalQuQE4F
Fri Mar 14, 10:29 PM ET
HAMBURG, Germany - The oldest bordello in Hamburg's red-light district is shutting down for lack of business, according to newspaper reports published Friday.
The family-run Hotel Luxor, established in 1948, is being sold to an investor and will close down for good next month, madam Waltraud Mehrer said, according to the Hamburg Morgenpost and Bild newspapers.
She blamed the decline in business on easily available Internet porn, the rise of call-girl services, and "noisy discos and dance clubs" on the same street as her business, the newspapers reported.
"You can't make any big money selling sex in St. Pauli any more," she was quoted as saying, referring to the area that includes the red-light district. "The only thing still in operation are the table dance clubs."
The club's heyday was in the 1970s, when it was open 7 days a week, with 12 prostitutes on hand.

Well thanks to internet porn now these poor girls are gonna be outta work. Way to go guys.

 

[terryl965]

Can't we all just live in harmony and get along.

 

[navyvetcv60]

I'd go with the system that a number of countries, mostly European, have.

Prostitution is legal and regulated.
Being a pimp or madame gets you jail time.
The workers get health checks and education.
They can call the police when customers cause problems.

I really don't know where I'm at on this issue, i don't like Government regulation, and Morally i have issues with pimps, hoe's & Johns.
Regarding the " The workers get health checks and education"
Who pays for this, i surly don't want my taxes to be spent this way, and in this country there would have to be a Department of vice or something like, and that would just be a Bureaucrat nightmare, and i seriously doubt that the tax dollars brought in by the legalization of prostitution would be enough to off set this new department in our already over sized Government.

They can call the police when customers cause problems.[/quote]
Just more work load for our already over worked and under appreciated police force in the big cities, and of coarse, this will also cost more tax dollars.

 

[CoryKS]

Well thanks to internet porn now these poor girls are gonna be outta work. Way to go guys.

Internet pr0n - is there anything it can't do?

 

[MA-Caver]

Internet pr0n - is there anything it can't do?

Yeah, fix your car.