Can you tell me anything about the logic behind chambering punches?

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the thing here is that some of us feel the mechanics it builds are suboptimal, to put it mildly.

This could be why the only place you see punches like that are in point karate and tkd, and they are tip taps.

Those folks are using a version of the punch that works in that context. When the mechanics of the punch are used in sparring, they don't differ hugely from the basic mechanics of a boxing punch. I still use the same basic mechanics I've always used, but I don't look a bit like what you see in any of those drills. I look more like a boxer sometimes (when I'm not standing too tall for boxing movement).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Cross: Starts from Boxing guard, less travel time, move towards ball of foot to generate more power in hip rotation.
Reverse: Starts from hip, longer travel time, foot remains planted, power generated from hip rotation.

That's a formal position. The reverse punch, in application, actually is just like what you described for the boxing cross. A "reverse punch" is just a straight punch from the rear hand. I know of no other definition for it.

EDIT: One difference, actually - a lot of Karateka don't shift to the ball of the foot, to keep some weight in reserve. This sacrifices power for stability and protection from takedown. I think most in MMA have found other ways to protect against foot sweeps and such.

 

[Hanzou]

One punch is done in the context that your Opponent doesn't kick. The other one is done in the context that your opponent kicks. A Boxing Cross is not suitable for use against someone who has a strong kick. The weight distribution of the Boxing Cross causes a weaker root.

The Cross is used in Muay Thai and MMA, and there are kicks in MMA and Muay Thai.

Neither of those sports/MA use the Reverse Punch or the Karate stances that are supposedly giving you a "better root".

 

[Hanzou]

That's a formal position. The reverse punch, in application, actually is just like what you described for the boxing cross. A "reverse punch" is just a straight punch from the rear hand. I know of no other definition for it.
.

So why are Karate students taught the "formal position" instead of the actual technique?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The Cross is used in Muay Thai and MMA, and there are kicks in MMA and Muay Thai.

Neither of those sports/MA use the Reverse Punch or the Karate stances that are supposedly giving your a better root.

When you use boxing guard, if you throw a roundhouse kick, the punch you throw afterward have to come from the boxing guard. It makes no sense to drop your hand on your waist from a boxing guard and then punch out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The Cross is used in Muay Thai and MMA, and there are kicks in MMA and Muay Thai.

The cross in Muay Thai is not a Boxer's cross. Muay thai crosses are thrown in the context of being able to launch a kick from the punch.

Here's a boxer's cross. It is clear by their footwork that they won't be able to throw a good kick with their cross.

 

[Hanzou]

When you use boxing guard, if you throw a roundhouse kick, the punch you throw afterward have to come from the boxing guard. It makes no sense to drop your hand on your waist from a boxing guard and then punch out.

You don't have to use the Boxing guard, you could always use this guard:

This way your chambered strike is ready to be unleashed!

 

[JowGaWolf]

The Cross is used in Muay Thai and MMA, and there are kicks in MMA and Muay Thai.

When you see a boxer's cross thrown you will never see a kick follow.
When you see a muay thai cross thrown you will often see a kick follow.

 

[CB Jones]

Except it isn't.

Boxing Cross:

Reverse Punch:

Disagree.

The small differences is mainly caused by the stance. The hand can be chambered lower or higher.

Again I like the way Michael Jai White shows the reverse punch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You don't have to use the Boxing guard, you could always use this guard:

This way your chambered strike is ready to be unleashed!

Yes it's possible to fight with a karate stance. The concept of a chambered strike is not what you think. Chambered strikes do not just sit on the hip waiting for stuff to happen. Chambered strikes return to the hip or chest and fire out ward. Examples of both are found here.

 

[Hanzou]

The cross in Muay Thai is not a Boxer's cross. Muay thai crosses are thrown in the context of being able to launch a kick from the punch.

Here's a boxer's cross. It is clear by their footwork that they won't be able to throw a good kick with their cross.

Er what? Why didn't you simply post a Boxer Cross instructional video as well?

Here, I'll help you out:

Muay Thai Cross:

Boxing Cross:

Differences?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many people confuse chambered fist in training and chambered fist in application

 

[Hanzou]

Many people confuse chambered fist in training and chambered fist in application

That's the training and the description (alongside a demonstration) of the application. They're not different.

I suppose the confusion arises when you're trained in this way ad nauseam, and then when you actually spar you realize it's next to impossible to actually hit anyone utilizing that method.

 

[Hanzou]

Disagree.

The small differences is mainly caused by the stance. The hand can be chambered lower or higher.

That is never expressed in any kata or formal training. Within those contexts, the Reverse Punch ALWAYS begins with the hand chambered at the hip.

 

[CB Jones]

That is never expressed in any kata or formal training. Within those contexts, the Reverse Punch ALWAYS begins with the hand chambered at the hip.

Ok.....that doesn't mean that as students progress variations are learned and taught....like chambering the hands in a higher or lower position.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Er what? Why didn't you simply post a Boxer Cross instructional video as well?

Here, I'll help you out:

Muay Thai Cross:

Boxing Cross:

Differences?

Look at the rear foot. One foot pivots the other raises. That's a big difference. If all you are looking at is the punch then you'll miss the reality and that reality is that these are not the same punches. You can see structurally that these are not same punches. When you look at the muay thai fighter from the fight you can see that his stance is not the same as a boxers stance.

 

[Hanzou]

Ok.....that doesn't mean that as students progress variations are learned and taught....like chambering the hands in a higher or lower position.

Again, you are never formally taught the Boxer Cross, you are taught the Reverse punch. The techniques are NOT interchangeable, they are fundamentally different from each other. As I mentioned multiple posts ago, students informally adapted the reverse punch to mirror the Boxer's Cross because they quickly realized that the former is impractical against Western Boxing.

 

[Hanzou]

Look at the rear foot. One foot pivots the other raises. That's a big difference. If all you are looking at is the punch then you'll miss the reality and that reality is that these are not the same punches. You can see structurally that these are not same punches. When you look at the muay thai fighter from the fight you can see that his stance is not the same as a boxers stance.

LoL! You mean him pivoting to his tip-toes because he was punching someone taller than him?

It's laughable that you think there's a structural difference there. That is literally the exact same punch with the difference coming into play because the MT guy is punching a higher target.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That's the training and the description (alongside a demonstration) of the application.

An application demo is not the same as the actual application of a technique. An application demo is like an explainer video. It lacks things like , timing, fight movement, baiting.
This is an applications demo. It explains

This is actual application. No explaining. Only showing actual application (non demo)

 

[JowGaWolf]

LoL! You mean him pivoting to his tip-toes because he was punching someone taller than him?

His lead foot stays flat so his height does not change. Do you punch on your tippy toes when someone is taller than you?