Bujinkan a fraud?

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Brian R. VanCise

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All that is being said there is that the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu as it is taught is not Koryu. That does not mean that ryu-ha within Budo Taijutsu are not Koryu just that the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu (which comprises 9 distinct ryu-ha) are not Koryu. Budo Taijutsu is Hatsumi Sensei way of transmitting the 9 ryu-ha and it is a modern form of it. (ie. the name) So in effect this has been dealt with, again and again and again and yet again. Budo Taijutsu = Not Koryu but within Budo Taijutsu there are ryu-ha that are Koryu.

Hope that helps!
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Tanaka

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Bruno@MT

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I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.

http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4

http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html

Wow... my world is falling apart...
Or not.

I've actually discussed this topic with Meik Skoss himself. Friendly guy.
The thing is: what is practiced today in the kans is not koryu. Not that big a revelation. The fact that those systems got founded in the second half of last century is a big clue. and he is right, that ninjutsu as it existed way back when does not exist anymore. Ninja themselves don't exist anymore either.

It is also not 'ninjutsu' per se which we train. What we do is based on the taijutsu aspect of the ninjutsu ryuha, as well as the ryuha associated with ninja, like shinden fudo ryu. That is why it is called ninpo instead of ninjutsu.

Several of the ryuha in the kans are even listed on the koryu.com page, such as kukishin ryu, asayama ichiden ryu and yagyu shingan ryu.
 

Chris Parker

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I don't remember who gave me the link to this website called Koryo.com but I got some interesting things regarding Ninjutsu that they post on their website that I would like to bring to everyone's attention.

http://www.koryu.com/library/kbfaq.html#q4

http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html

Ha, seriously? You're going to try to preach Koryu to us? Oh, it's koryu.com, not koryo, that would be Tae Kwon Do, so you know.....

Out of interest, did you go to the link that they themselves supplied on the "FAQ" section there? For the Bujinkan perspective? They did recommend it, you know....

I'm also going to point out that Meik and Dianne Skoss make no claim to be the arbiters of what is or is not Koryu, primarily because that would cause more headaches than it's worth, so while their opinions can and do hold a fair amount of weight, it is far from definitive, or even absolutely authoritative. Add to that the articles you linked are not entirely in date, and don't deal with Jinichi Kawakami or his group (Meik was on a panel during a question and answer section with Kawakami a year or two back). It could also be added that their views are not even universal within the Koryu community, with such people as Otake Sensei of the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu reputedly going on record as saying that he felt that the Bujinkan lineages are authentic as well.

For the record, here are some videos of Juan Hombre, who claims to be a student of Kawakami, and his representative (or at least used to....). My personal feeling, though, is that these are not representative of Kawakami or his methods... frankly, if they were, there is no way he would convince anyone with any form of idea that his line is even close to authentic.

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To compare that, here are a few Koryu systems as found in the Kan's (although not transmitted that way):

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Really, you're a fair bit behind here already.
 

ronin7411

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Actually the site recommends any of kind of training that you see as effective for YOU IN COMBAT even if they don't see it as authentic bujutsu (which was stated in the article as well regarding training in the X-kans) because its martial arts training. But oh well its your problem to worry about not mine since I'm not concerned with lineage anymore only if the training can save my life when I have to use it. Besides check out this video of someone making fun of the style of Ninjutsu entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKlA9h-Ss&feature=channel_video_title along with pokes fun of how the X-kans have scrolls to back up that they are an authentic ninja lineage and thinks Ninjutsu's effectiveness in the modern world is absurd.
 

Aiki Lee

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I watched about 30seconds of that hoping that it would be relavent in some way to the discussion. It is not.
 

Bruno@MT

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Actually the site recommends any of kind of training that you see as effective for YOU IN COMBAT even if they don't see it as authentic bujutsu (which was stated in the article as well regarding training in the X-kans) because its martial arts training. But oh well its your problem to worry about not mine since I'm not concerned with lineage anymore only if the training can save my life when I have to use it. Besides check out this video of someone making fun of the style of Ninjutsu entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKlA9h-Ss&feature=channel_video_title along with pokes fun of how the X-kans have scrolls to back up that they are an authentic ninja lineage and thinks Ninjutsu's effectiveness in the modern world is absurd.

Good for you.
though if you really believe that Ashida Kim's drivel is any good...

Did you see his youtube video where he pretends to levitate? Only his *** is still on the ground and when the assistant pulls the hoop underneath him, it doesn't actually go underneath him but around his scrawny *** which is still firmly planted on the ground. After that, he performs a simple magic trick with a pingpong ball, though he doesn't call it stage magic but mind controlled levitation.

I think it is weird that you supposedly 'train to save your life' with someone like that.
You don't mean that you take these viedos of him seriously, do you?
Do you plan to levitate away when you are under attack?

[yt]5F3tJHuZDIo[/yt]
 
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ronin7411

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Um I'm studying under Ron Collins which his Ninjutsu is from the Omoto Ryu which is more militant and uses modern day military tactics because of Ron Collins' prior service in the military and I have stated this before numerous amounts of times

http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html

Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu descends from the Kimitake clan like he states in his FAQ so we're as different as night and day

http://ashidakim.com/index.html#faq

Also we have a different syllabus and techniques so much to your dismay and disappointment I can only use bits and pieces of Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu in my training in Omoto Ryu.
 

Indagator

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Substance? Matter? Form? Light and shade? Mindless drivel. All of these. None of these. You decide, friend. You decide.
 

Aiki Lee

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Ronin 7411,

What is it about those people that makes you want to follow their methods?
 

Tanaka

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Um I'm studying under Ron Collins which his Ninjutsu is from the Omoto Ryu which is more militant and uses modern day military tactics because of Ron Collins' prior service in the military and I have stated this before numerous amounts of times

http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html

Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu descends from the Kimitake clan like he states in his FAQ so we're as different as night and day

http://ashidakim.com/index.html#faq

Also we have a different syllabus and techniques so much to your dismay and disappointment I can only use bits and pieces of Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu in my training in Omoto Ryu.

Blah Blah Blah blah
Effective Blah Blah Blah
Save my Life Blah Blah Blah
Ineffective Blah Blah Blah
Military tactics Blah Blah Blah

This is all irrelevant to if it should be called "Ninjutsu" or not.
Or be considered a Ryu.
 

Chris Parker

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I really don't see why you continue to try this, but okay, here we go!

Actually the site recommends any of kind of training that you see as effective for YOU IN COMBAT even if they don't see it as authentic bujutsu (which was stated in the article as well regarding training in the X-kans) because its martial arts training.

Koryu.com are you refering to there? Really? Once again, preaching to us (especially to me, of all people here) about Koryu is frankly you being so far out of your depth it's not even funny anymore. And I see nothing about training in something that you see as "effective for you in combat" there in any article either. Mainly because the only time the Koryu guys say things like that is to dissuade someone from training in Koryu itself, as that means you are looking for the wrong things if that's how you're coming to such a study, and it's a nice way of saying "hey, whatever makes you happy, don't let the door hit you on the way out!" A little discernment could help you out a great deal here, Johnny.

The point to take away from that is that if you have the attitude of "only what works", then that's fine.... but thinking that that has anything to do with historical validity is just wrong. And without historical validity, don't think it is anything close to Ninjutsu (or Koryu), no matter what anyone wants to call what they do.

But oh well its your problem to worry about not mine since I'm not concerned with lineage anymore only if the training can save my life when I have to use it.

Here's the thing, though.

If you are attracted to training in Ninjutsu (which you certainly were, and still are), then you are attracted to what you percieved it to be. For yourself, it's some image of what you think is effective combative methods. And with something like Ninjutsu, that is presented by it's historical legacy. In fact, it's that historical legacy that gives the art it's credibility as an effective method. Really, it's the only thing that does.

Now, if you are training in a "ninjutsu" system which has no historical validity or veracity whatsoever (we'll deal with your art in a second), what on earth would make you think that the methods they are teaching are in any way valid? If you're not concerned with lineage, then there is no reason to train in old systems (or ones that claim such age), as the historical lineage is the only thing you have to give credibility. Without it, you could very easily be training in something that has the effectiveness of hitting someone with a wet lettuce leaf (and, frankly, from seeing Ron's videos, that is most likely the case).

Besides check out this video of someone making fun of the style of Ninjutsu entirely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jxKlA9h-Ss&feature=channel_video_title along with pokes fun of how the X-kans have scrolls to back up that they are an authentic ninja lineage and thinks Ninjutsu's effectiveness in the modern world is absurd.

Son, that video seems to be targeting people such as your Ron Collins, Ashida Kim etc. The reference to "scrolls" is not a reference to the Bujinkan, more to those attempting to create the same forms of evidence. Scrolls are actually considered quite good evidence for the credibility of a classical system, you know, having them (genuinely) would be considered a good thing, it's the ones that claim it but have nothing to back anything up are the actual ones targeted there. The "80's book guy" seems to be Ashida Kim, by the way, not Hayes. You may note the spelling is the ill-informed (fake/fraudulant) "ninjitsu" that they're discussing here.

Basically, you just showed a video that makes fun of your group. Nice.

Um I'm studying under Ron Collins which his Ninjutsu is from the Omoto Ryu which is more militant and uses modern day military tactics because of Ron Collins' prior service in the military and I have stated this before numerous amounts of times

http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html

Except for the fact that the only recorded "Omoto Ryu" disappeared a few centuries ago, there is no connection to Japan (other than Ron constantly saying that one of the teachers lives there.... but never stating that the teacher is Japanese, that the art is, that the teacher was born there, or anything of the kind, instead giving the impression that this "teacher" moved to Japan from the US or Canada... oh, and did you notice which in the little "puppet show" was Ron?), modern military tactics are completely irrelevant to a "ninjutsu" system, Ron's military claims are highly dubious, and self contradictory in a large number of places (to the point where he eventually said that the reason was that he deliberately put lies out to see if anyone would accept them[?!?!], despite that being a criminal act), and his tactics (as demonstrated on his videos) show a complete lack of knowledge, understanding, skill, ability, insight, and more, to the point that he shows some completely ill-advised and downright dangerous (to the practitioner) methods, especially where firearms are concerned. All of which you have been told and made aware of many times before as well (hence my wondering why you keep coming back with this stuff).

Oh, and that book looks hilarious, by the way... but in no way factual, realistic, effective, intelligent, or good in any traditional sense of the term.

Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu descends from the Kimitake clan like he states in his FAQ so we're as different as night and day

http://ashidakim.com/index.html#faq

No, you're as different as night and five minutes later that night.

Case in point is that Ron is part of Ashida's group (under his own name there, but the association is definately there). From there we get the "Kimitake" clan. Not really sounding like a Japanese name to my ears there, gotta say, at least, not a surname. It's a first name.

Oh, and that site is hysterical! The number of mistakes, problems, incorrect information, spelling errors, historical inaccuracies, and so on are fanastic! Needed a laugh, thanks!

Also we have a different syllabus and techniques so much to your dismay and disappointment I can only use bits and pieces of Ashida Kim's Ninjutsu in my training in Omoto Ryu.

Both are made up from nothing, though. So no matter how much you use of either, you are still not training in Ninjutsu. Gotta tell you.

Seriously, you need to come up with much better stuff than this.
 

Bruno@MT

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Well, if -after having watched the levitation vid- you still can't bring yourself to say Ashida Kim is a con man, then that is just sad. It shows that you will validate any joker if he validates you as a 'ninjer' in turn.

If your training with Ron Collins works for you, that is great. Just don't close your eyes to the lies he was caught in, or the fact that nothing of what he does has any relevance to something an actual ninja did in Japan. The fact that he plays the 'secret teacher' game just like Bryce Dallas, Frank Dux, Ashida Kim and th erest of that bunch. It's almost as if it is impossible for a white man to throw a rock without hitting a secret ninja master just waiting to transfer their art to a western kid. :)

For your information, that scenario happened only once, with a jujutsu lineage of which the last soke was a Japanese immigrant who thought he would never see Japan again or have an opportunity to train a Japanese successor. And contrary to your idols, his teacher did exist and had a name, history identification papers. He spent many years with him, traveled to Japan, met several other important names in the company of his teacher and other witnesses, has pictures and lots of details that are rock hard evidence that he speaks the truth. And he only cares about preserving his art and passing it on correctly, to a very small group of students. He doesn't advertise, does not have belts or dan grades, does not publish DVDs... He seeks no fame and asks his students not to promote him. His name is Don Angier.

From what I read, and see in your friends list on facebook, you have a hollywood image of what a ninja is, you want that, and you idolize anyone who validates your fantasy.
 

ronin7411

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Ronin 7411,

What is it about those people that makes you want to follow their methods?

Okay its a long story but I hope you guys like reading but here is a couple of Ron Collins books on PDF specifically the Black Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course book and his Street Focus Jujitsu Handbook:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32627925/Street-Focus-Jujitsu-Home-Study-Course-Handbook

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32627774/Black-Dragon-Ninjitsu-Home-Study-Course

and here is a PDF of Ashida Kim's Ninja Hands of Death:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47990796/Ninja-Hands-of-Death

Now be forewarned that there are even more maneuvers in their books and videos that are used in other martial arts as well but I'm only going to do a few comparisons to their material and it being used in the real world and how it goes into my training at the school I belong to where I get formal instruction.

Check out this video called Pro Wrestling Moves Done MMA Style


there is a submission hold called the Sleeper Hold at 3:07 in the video that was also used in Mitsuhiro Ishida and Coal Uno's fight well in Ron Collins' Street Focus Jujitsu Handbook on page 33 he calls it the Cross-Arm Strangle and in Ashida Kim's Ninja Hands of Death on page 41 he calls the same hold the Human Strait Jacket Hold and since I want to train in MMA more often as soon as my finances are more stable that is a submission hold I'm going to be using while I train in MMA.

Now at 3:30 seconds in the Pro Wrestling Moves Done MMA Style video there is a move called the DDT or the Downward Drop Takedown which that maneuver was referenced in the Yoshihisa Yamamato vs Mark Kerr fight well on page 37 of Ron Collins' Street Focus Jujitsu Handbook he demonstrates a DDT as well which can go into my martial arts training as well

Also here is Jeff Speakman going into a stance where he is on one leg with his hands up against my American Kenpo instructor Matt Lanman. Well all Jeff Speakman had to do was open his hands up and straighten his back up and he would of been doing a Tsuru Ashi Kamae stance which is on page 14 of Ron Collins' Black Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course

http://www.fortunecity.com/olympia/christie/723/

Well this is just a rumor and can't be confirmed but factor this into the equation that James Mitose claimed to have trained with Fujita Seiko and combining his training in Koga Ryu Ninjitsu and Sato Ryu Kempo into his Kenpo teachings

http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KF/comp-other.html

http://www.freewebs.com/kenpoexchange/History2.htm

Check out this video of Shootfighting instructor Mark Barnett he runs the East Coast Shootfighting Academy in Stuart, Florida


Starting off on 1:28 seconds of the video Mark does a Goshi Nage from Ron Collins Black Dragon Ninjitsu Home Study Course book which is on page 40

Then on 1:35 seconds into the video Mark has does an Ankle Breaker which is featured in Ashida Kim's Ninja Hands of Death on page 35 and transitions into a Hip Breaker after the Ankle Breaker which is featured in the same book by Ashida Kim on page 37

Then also on 1:47-1:58 seconds into the video Mark demonstrates the Sickle Submission Hold not once but twice which is featured in the same book by Ashida Kim on page 40 too.

Moving on to 2:51-3:00 into the video which Mark does a Sweeping Roll well in Ashida Kim's Ninja Shot video in 2:56-3:03 seconds he does the same move that Mark does as well and he's shown demonstrating it too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXm8MFUMFyQ&feature=fvst

I also train in ITF Tae Kwon Do at my school and General Choi Hong Hi was a 2nd Degree Black Belt in Shotokan Karate under Gichin Funakoshi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong_Hi

Now look at the biography of Takeshi Shimada he was a respectable Shotokan instructor that also studied Koga Ryu under the Kurokawa clan and was Gichin Funakoshi's personal assistant

http://www.jkiindia.jkiworld.com/masters.html

Along with I train in Hapkido which its founder Choi Yong Sool trained in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujitsu and even that is contested by people as well which that style has roots to the Black Dragon Society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Yong-Sool

http://www.butokudo.com/Kotaro.html

So in short no matter what style I study in the martial arts I'm going to be called a fraud and a fake anyway because of the negative things associated with that style or its practitioners and I see moves they do that mirror what I'm training in formally at a school and because I see similarities from my school's teachings to what they do too mind as well use them to reference my training at my school too. Sounds simple don't it ?
 
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Chris Parker

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You are kidding, right? Look, I don't have time to go through all this now, as I'm about to head out and teach an actual class, but I'm more than happy to go through it all tomorrow, and pull apart everything you've said here, as you are completely out of touch with reality as it pertains to martial arts, violence, combat, effectiveness, validity, credibility, and more.
 

ronin7411

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Look guys I don't care what you think of me I have my reasons as to why I do the things I do regarding my martial arts training as you guys do with yours. Besides I haven't seen Bruno provide proof yet of Toda's existence as Oaktree requested other than the response he doesn't know and I guess you guys banned RoninX for his comment stating the same thing. You guy's have your own problems to worry about it as it is if threads like this are coming up questioning your style's lineage just like the styles that I formally train in and this is just counting in the styles I train at in a school not Ron Collins' or Ashida Kim's material either. So go on ahead say whatever you want to say about me and why I'm approaching my martial arts training in this matter I got better things to worry about than pleasing people who are being called the same things that they are calling me. (Hint read the title of this thread)
 

Aiki Lee

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RoninX, I believe, was banned for his insulting behavior towards members of the forum. Specifically his sniping on the aikido threads. I'm sure he had other stupid comments on other subjects as well.

I believe we are all getting a little tired of pointing out why Collins, Kim, Dux, Dallas, and Sho Kusugi are not credible ninjutsu sources. If you like the "training" you get, good, keep practicing. But you have to acknowledge that it is not actual ninjutsu because it has no link to Japanese ninja, or even Samurai schools with ninjutsu curriculum.

Mr. Parker has pointed out that if these people lie about their art, then they probably have no basis for knowing it is effective. Being in the military does not automatically make you understand close quarters combat. It does make you a bit more credible when talking about unit tactics and firefights.

Evidence for the credibility of the takamatsuden has been laid out several times before. If you are dead set against it then there is nothing that can be done to chage your mind. Arguing with a stubborn person is like giving medicine to the dead. The difference with the kans and their offshoots is that they have evidence. If its not enough for you or other people then that's that. But the phoney baloney characters out there provide no evidence. That is why they shouldn't be believed.

You didn't really answer my question so I think I need to reword it.

Why pick these people over other, more objectively credible instructors? And for the record, hapkido, mma, and TKD are fine, but not very compatible with ninjutsu. I'm getting the impression you are being taught all these different approaches at the same time, which is not a great approach to training for mastery.
 

Bruno@MT

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The argument we're having is like this.

You say you are learn to ride a Porsche. We say it is not a Porche but a ferrari because it doesn't look like one, it doesn't handle like one, the pedals are the wrong type, and the telltale shield is missing from the hood. And then you say 'I don't care what you say. It is faster than your car, I don't care about lineage or where it comes from'

A similar argument could be made for learning leanguages, and you claiming that cyrillic is a different form of Japanese.

It's good that you like what you are doing, but if you really wanted to learn X, at least make the effort to find X, instead of picking Y while still calling it X, because you think Y and X are the same.
 

pgsmith

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The thing that I always wonder about people training with instructors such as Ron Collins or Ashida Kim, is why do they always come to MA forums and argue? It is pretty darned obvious with just a little research that they are being sold an invented art. However, many of these people show up on various fora and inevitably, when confronted with evidence that it's an invented art, say they don't care what others think. If they don't care what others think and enjoy their training, why do they keep coming back to argue that it's something it obviously is not?

I just don't get it. If someone wants to pursue the Hollywood ninja image, then that's great. If it gives them some confidence and makes them feel good about themselves, then great. If they don't care what others think and want to continue what they're doing, then great! However, if that's truly the case, why try so desperately to convince others that it is something that it obviously isn't?
 
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