Budo Musings

[Gyakuto]

it has little to do with anything, just came to being odd that neuro science would be worth mentioning for this.

Have you actually read any of my blog articles, Rat?

 

[isshinryuronin]

'I know that the late Nagamine Shoshin (founder of Matsubayashi Shorinryu and student of Kyan, Motobu and Arakake!) got interested in zen by the early 1960's.

Always a dollar short and a day late. Since I posted the above, yesterday, in regards to zen being an integral element of modern TMA, rather than just entertainment media fantasy, I have just, by coincidence, come across an earlier reference to zen in regards to the study of karate. This was dated 1936 (before entertainment media) and made by none other than Miyagi Chojun, founder of gojuryu.

So the idea of zen having a connection to modern TMA seems real enough and has at least an 85 year history. What importance it had in the early koryu arts is out of my area of expertise. As to what part zen plays in today's American karate dojos I would think is slight. We can probably count on our fingers the number of dojos here that incorporate true zen methods and spirituality. But dojos that have just a shadow or hint of zen are at least passing on some traditional spirituality and philosophy. Not required, but it doesn't hurt.

 

[Gyakuto]

Always a dollar short and a day late. Since I posted the above, yesterday, in regards to zen being an integral element of modern TMA, rather than just entertainment media fantasy, I have just, by coincidence, come across an earlier reference to zen in regards to the study of karate. This was dated 1936 (before entertainment media) and made by none other than Miyagi Chojun, founder of gojuryu.

So the idea of zen having a connection to modern TMA seems real enough and has at least an 85 year history. What importance it had in the early koryu arts is out of my area of expertise. As to what part zen plays in today's American karate dojos I would think is slight. We can probably count on our fingers the number of dojos here that incorporate true zen methods and spirituality. But dojos that have just a shadow or hint of zen are at least passing on some traditional spirituality and philosophy. Not required, but it doesn't hurt.

That’s interesting. What was the context of Miyagi’s comment? What did he say?

You could say virtually any physical act, including the martial arts, is the psychophysical aspect of ‘Zen’ provided it has certain characteristics such as meditative absorption (samadhi) where one is ’singleminded’ and fully engaged in the act, there is an awareness, but not an attachment, to the environment and stimuli within it and correct body alignment and the tanden soku breathing method is employed. What do you think, hoshin1600?

I sometimes wonder if the psychophysical aspect of Buddhism and the philosophical/sutra/chanting aspects are two completely different disciplines, the latter derived from ‘local‘ religions and practises of the country that Buddhism has arrived in, pushed together into an uncomfortable but stable union. It seems as if, say, Tibetan Buddhism emphasises the latter aspects more than the former and Rinzai Zen, emphasis the psychophysical.

I find the psychophysical stuff very ‘natural’ and progressive but the other practises leave me cold and uncomfortable...and that’s from a person brought up as a Hindu, full of ceremony and woo-woo!

 

[Buka]

I always found that the more rigorous you're training students, the more you have to include the teachings and practice of Zen. It helps keep them in balance.

And the more crazy hard their training, the more they love getting "Zenned Up" as we used to say.

 

[Gyakuto]

Perhaps some of you will find this online event of interest.

Workshop: Zen, Martial Arts, and Physical Culture | Meido Moore

The use of body and breath to integrate mind-body unification is an important element in Rinzai Zen training. In this workshop, Meido will talk about practical aspects of the body in Zen, and specifically the connection between Rinzai Zen and martial arts. But you do not need to practice martial...

www.inner-craft.com

 

[hoshin1600]

I always thought it strange that folks assume a close connection between zen and budo. Historically the esoteric Buddhist lines such as mikkyo had a far closer connection to martial arts in Japan. Seems to me like a media driven notion - film and tv

Always a dollar short and a day late. Since I posted the above, yesterday, in regards to zen being an integral element of modern TMA, rather than just entertainment media fantasy, I have just, by coincidence, come across an earlier reference to zen in regards to the study of karate. This was dated 1936 (before entertainment media) and made by none other than Miyagi Chojun, founder of gojuryu.

So the idea of zen having a connection to modern TMA seems real enough and has at least an 85 year history. What importance it had in the early koryu arts is out of my area of expertise. As to what part zen plays in today's American karate dojos I would think is slight. We can probably count on our fingers the number of dojos here that incorporate true zen methods and spirituality. But dojos that have just a shadow or hint of zen are at least passing on some traditional spirituality and philosophy. Not required, but it doesn't hurt.

My own perspective is that Karate, historically has little to no connection to authentic Zen training. Traditionally karate dojo have a Kamidana. Shoshin Nagamine being the exception. i will have to admit that he did have an influence on my own approach to training. we both belonged to the same lineage of Zen. i admire the man but to my knowledge his students in part saw Zen as not much more than the quirky, eccentric if not endearing ramblings of an old man and would much rather throw punches. so to what influence Nagamine had on karate is debatable. the only other integration of Zen into karate that i know of is Tadashi Nakamure of Seido karate. i cant say to what extent his brand of Zen training is authentic but as Buka pointed out his karate link to Oyama lends itself to a kind of shugyo training that can be seen as spiritual and Zen in nature. However from what i can tell the actual "training" , Zen practice that he teaches is what one would expect to find in a Zen setting.

I sometimes wonder if the psychophysical aspect of Buddhism and the philosophical/sutra/chanting aspects are two completely different disciplines, the latter derived from ‘local‘ religions and practises of the country that Buddhism has arrived in, pushed together into an uncomfortable but stable union. It seems as if, say, Tibetan Buddhism emphasises the latter aspects more than the former and Rinzai Zen, emphasis the psychophysical.

To compare Tibetan Buddhism with Zen is apples to oranges. It is a mistake many make, thinking all Buddhism and Zen are homogeneous . as a comparison it would be like thinking all the Abrahamic traditions are the same. But to Gyakuto's thought, chanting is the area most westerners would have a problem with. why i dont actually know but i think the influence of Christianity and their views on it play an unconscious role. i think its worth noting that many religious traditions find the "WORD" to be divine. We forget the Benedictine monks chant. there is also a tradition of repeating the Buddhas name. the spoken word is a key component to transcendence, embodying the divine in thought, word and deed. most people see Zen as "sitting" and while that is the primary focus there is also standing, lying down, walking, eating, doing samu (service, in most cases cleaning) and talking in the form of chanting. the idea is to bring the focus of the mind found in meditative sitting into daily activity. in Zen they turn everything into a strict form of prescribed action that is monitored and regulated. i often compare it to being a military Marine. there is a proper way to do everything. even how you place your tooth brush in your locker. as Jocko Willink says there is freedom in discipline (yeah i know he is a Seal not a Marine).

@Gyakuto you made me laugh and smile with the link to Meido Moore. We somewhat trained together. i remember and know him as only Kieth and he had a full head of hair back then. i often think about going back to Chicago and visiting him.

 

[_Simon_]

Perhaps some of you will find this online event of interest.

Workshop: Zen, Martial Arts, and Physical Culture | Meido Moore

The use of body and breath to integrate mind-body unification is an important element in Rinzai Zen training. In this workshop, Meido will talk about practical aspects of the body in Zen, and specifically the connection between Rinzai Zen and martial arts. But you do not need to practice martial...

www.inner-craft.com

Oh thanks so much for sharing this looks amazing... and actually at a time I can do. I definitely will attend much appreciated!

 

[Gyakuto]

My own perspective is that Karate, historically has little to no connection to authentic Zen training. Traditionally karate dojo have a Kamidana. Shoshin Nagamine being the exception. i will have to admit that he did have an influence on my own approach to training. we both belonged to the same lineage of Zen. i admire the man but to my knowledge his students in part saw Zen as not much more than the quirky, eccentric if not endearing ramblings of an old man and would much rather throw punches. so to what influence Nagamine had on karate is debatable. the only other integration of Zen into karate that i know of is Tadashi Nakamure of Seido karate. i cant say to what extent his brand of Zen training is authentic but as Buka pointed out his karate link to Oyama lends itself to a kind of shugyo training that can be seen as spiritual and Zen in nature. However from what i can tell the actual "training" , Zen practice that he teaches is what one would expect to find in a Zen setting.

To compare Tibetan Buddhism with Zen is apples to oranges. It is a mistake many make, thinking all Buddhism and Zen are homogeneous . as a comparison it would be like thinking all the Abrahamic traditions are the same. But to Gyakuto's thought, chanting is the area most westerners would have a problem with. why i dont actually know but i think the influence of Christianity and their views on it play an unconscious role. i think its worth noting that many religious traditions find the "WORD" to be divine. We forget the Benedictine monks chant. there is also a tradition of repeating the Buddhas name. the spoken word is a key component to transcendence, embodying the divine in thought, word and deed. most people see Zen as "sitting" and while that is the primary focus there is also standing, lying down, walking, eating, doing samu (service, in most cases cleaning) and talking in the form of chanting. the idea is to bring the focus of the mind found in meditative sitting into daily activity. in Zen they turn everything into a strict form of prescribed action that is monitored and regulated. i often compare it to being a military Marine. there is a proper way to do everything. even how you place your tooth brush in your locker. as Jocko Willink says there is freedom in discipline (yeah i know he is a Seal not a Marine).

@Gyakuto you made me laugh and smile with the link to Meido Moore. We somewhat trained together. i remember and know him as only Kieth and he had a full head of hair back then. i often think about going back to Chicago and visiting him.

I’m not sure having a kamidana in ones dojo excludes Zen practises being observed there in. Many classical Budo follow this pattern. Japan is famous for it acceptance of Shinto and Buddhism, side-by-side, throughout there lives...Shinto weddings, Buddhist funerals etc etc.

I wasn’t comparing Tibetan and Zen Buddhism practises but suggesting there were parallels between the distinction of psychophysical aspects and religious/ceremonial in both disciplines, the latter often reflecting local older spiritual beliefs. This was hypothesis was triggered after a conversation with a friend who is a Taoist. She told me there are two streams of Taoism...the Philosophical Taoism and Religious Taoism with practitioners following one or both of them! I was surprised by this overt dichotomy.

Oh no! Meido is a ‘Keith’? I thought he might’ve been a ‘Lancelot’, ‘Laurence’ or a ‘Roger’! 😉 I really like his teachings. He’s clear, lucid and explains complex ideas with succinct clarity. Did you train in Zen or Aikido with him?

 

[Gyakuto]

Oh thanks so much for sharing this looks amazing... and actually at a time I can do. I definitely will attend much appreciated!

Meido Moore is currently writing a book on Zen and the martial arts to clear up the many untruths associated with this relationship. He said we just have to wait for a year or two to get hold of a copy! Omori Sogen Roshi wrote an interesting essay called ‘Budo and Zen’ which is printed as a booklet. ‘When Buddhist Attack’ by J.K. Mann explains the apparent contradiction between a non-violent Zen Buddhism and the martial ways and is another excellent read.

 

[_Simon_]

Meido Moore is currently writing a book on Zen and the martial arts to clear up the many untruths associated with this relationship. He said we just have to wait for a year or two to get hold of a copy! Omori Sogen Roshi wrote an interesting essay called ‘Budo and Zen’ which is printed as a booklet. ‘When Buddhist Attack’ by J.K. Mann explains the apparent contradiction between a non-violent Zen Buddhism and the martial ways and is another excellent read.

Ah fantastic, thank you will look into those

 

[hoshin1600]

Did you train in Zen or Aikido with him?

Both. My local instructor introduced Toyoda Sensei of AAA Aikido to Omori Sogens student Tenshin Tenouye who was the abbot of Chozen-Ji. Toyoda had spent time in a Zen monastery earlier in his life and Toyoda's Aikido dojo became a Betsuin of Chozen-ji. (To respect position and title I will only use last names here) anyways..Moore was Toyoda's uchi-deshi live in student. Moore and another student Miller both moved up thru the ranks in both Aikido and Zen, so i trained with all the parties involved but not regularly with Moore as he was in Chicago and I am in Massachusetts. However we both traveled around to where ever training was happening. He is awesome at aikido BTW. I will look for his book. Thank you for that. our martial art paths are different , I'm more of a karate guy so I would be interested about how our views differ.
I would add this is where my name Hoshin comes from but I am not ordained or took Tonsure. Actually chozen- ji never had any intention of ordained monks until Miller Roshi pressed the issue and Moore followed suit after him.

 

[Gyakuto]

I have a very lovely biography of Tenouye from Chozen-ji...a remarkable man. You have had an interesting Budo life and like you, I’m a (Wado Ryu) Karate person although all my energy goes towards the Japanese sword.