BS and the internal arts.

[oaktree]

For decades there have been usually two camps to internal arts the ones who do it more for a dance and health and the ones who train it as a martial arts with the added benefit of health. There seems to be a third camp and that is the ones who attempt to train it as a martial art but train in it with a false pretense of what fighting is and about. This to me is very dangerous because it is better to either know how to fight or not know how to fight then think you know how to fight but really don't know how to fight.

Evaluating our training method is our training a realistic approach both physical and mental. If you are talking about pillows and couches and pushing lightly I can tell you never have been in a fight.
If you talk about using Fa jin to be able to escape a mount position on the ground you never been in a ground fight. I am all for traditional practice and training in the art for what it is, but if it can't be applied realistically it should not be claimed that it can be. Training exercises that do not get a student ready to deal with a realistic encounter should not be taught as a method to deal with a realistic encounter.

If someone wants to do push hands as a slow moving exercise great thousands of old ladies do the same and not one of them think they can fight like that. If you are a serious martial artist looking to actually be able to apply that in a street encounter then yes highly criticize doing slow movement and light force because it is not going to work on the 200lb guy trying to bash your brains in. Evalutate your art, criticize it, critique it, get pass the BS of it and get back to training it as something you can depend on to save your life.

In essences to the point don't BS yourself and others in realistic approaches to martial arts it can be dangerous

 

[Xue Sheng]

Only comment, and I shall make no more....

All CMA styles are made up of Kicking and punching, Shuaijiao and qinna. It has been my experience that much of this is overlooked, especially the qinna bits, for expedience so other things get applied that make it something other than what it started out to be.

 

[Zeny]

This seems to be directed at me, so let me say my piece.

I have not been in a real fight, and i have not sparred with an attacker who is out to hurt me. I know my limits.

However i am trained by a traditional chinese martial arts teacher who have competed in chinese lei tai tournaments in his younger days and won many of them. He keeps us from growing overconfident with ourselves and reminds us what real violent fighting is like.

In the other thread i talked about push hands, i haven't discussed other important aspects of training yet.

Push hands is not fighting. To train for actual fighting, one needs to go beyond push hands. One important element is conditioning.

I have been taught that in the chinese martial world there are three famous 'zhang'. These are not taught or disclosed lightly but since i am incapable of keeping a secret they are as follows:

1) tie sa zan (iron palm) - when this is trained, the muscles in the hand become as hard as iron (or so i've heard), but may cause discomfort when one gets old as the hardened muscles are not conducive to blood circulation

2) hong sa zan (red palm) - when this is trained, the palm will become red in colour when activated due to chi and increased blood circulation being directed to the palm

3) mien sa zan (cotton palm) - when this is trained, the palm remains soft and supple like a baby's and this palm can be used in traditional chinese massage to cure problems with muscles and injuries caused by the iron palm

Serious taijiquan martial artists are advised to practise the cotton palm to supplement their taijiquan training. I have practised it a little but since i have no interest in violent sparring or fighting i don't seriously train in it. Usually chinese martial artists would choose one of the three to practise in. For eg. my local wing chun friend trains in the iron palm.

 

[mograph]

In essences to the point don't BS yourself and others in realistic approaches to martial arts it can be dangerous

I see your point. While some of the internal methods are counterintuitve, how would those methods fare against someone large, fast, and aggressive? How have they fared, not just in theory, but in practice?

I recommend this book as a cross-art examination of the use of subtle force against larger, stronger opponents:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585679445?

 

[hoshin1600]

Training exercises that do not get a student ready to deal with a realistic encounter should not be taught as a method to deal with a realistic encounter.

so in essence you just cut away 90% of all martial arts curriculum. most martial arts is an exercise in "fear management" not "threat management" from what i see most people want to walk around bragging about their black belt and pretend to themselves that they are badass.
this may be blasphemy on this sight but most martial arts is BS. its not about the art but the person. you either can or you cant. just because you train in a martial art doesnt make you a fighter. say whatever you want, train in any way you want, think whatever you want. it doesnt matter. the delusion is yours and yours alone and in most cases you will die of old age never knowing the reality anyway.

 

[oaktree]

This seems to be directed at me, so let me say my piece.

Not all of it is about you. I have spoken to many people who practice different internal arts online and in person.
Some even teachers and even a pervious teacher of mine. The problem is when you speak to a person about fighting and never been in an actual fight.

I have not been in a real fight, and i have not sparred with an attacker who is out to hurt me. I know my limits.

I have sparred and I have had actually had people try to kill me and having someone try to kill you and spar with you and do light push hands all completely different.

Push hands is not fighting. To train for actual fighting, one needs to go beyond push hands. One important element is conditioning.

You are correct it is not fighting in the sense that both people are trying to kill each other. However Push hands can be a challange:

This was consider a challange. If you do push hands with someone their intent may not be light and friendly and it may be a challange in the giuse of using push hands.

I have been taught that in the chinese martial world there are three famous 'zhang'. These are not taught or disclosed lightly but since i am incapable of keeping a secret they are as follows:

I don't think they are really secret maybe the training methods may be but it is common knowledge. Here is something to consider in doing push hands. I train in escrima as well and see similarities between push hands and escrima however escrima push hands as a more practicle and realistic approach.

 

[oaktree]

I see your point. While some of the internal methods are counterintuitve, how would those methods fare against someone large, fast, and aggressive? How have they fared, not just in theory, but in practice?

I recommend this book as a cross-art examination of the use of subtle force against larger, stronger opponents:The Book of Martial Power: Steven J. Pearlman: 9781585679447: Amazon.com: Books

Let's look at a big guy who also knows how to use a weapon.

I am smaller then him, what do I have that can be the equalizer if I don't have a weapon or can't find a weapon. If he is faster no point in running away.
I can't go toe to toe with him so

Or I may try to throw or choke because I know my punches,kicks are most likely are not going to do anything unless I can get a good kick to the knee or balls or a punch on the button. At least my examples have a better chance of survival
Can Internal arts work against larger opponents yes of course but you need to train against larger opponents.

I gave the example of in Daito ryu where I had to put a joint lock on a man who weight like 300 lbs! there is no way muscles or my body is going to be able to move him back so I have to displace his balance and have correct timing to do so.
To be honest if I have to fight someone bigger then me I am using a weapon.

 

[oaktree]

so in essence you just cut away 90% of all martial arts curriculum. most martial arts is an exercise in "fear management" not "threat management" from what i see most people want to walk around bragging about their black belt and pretend to themselves that they are badass.
this may be blasphemy on this sight but most martial arts is BS. its not about the art but the person. you either can or you cant. just because you train in a martial art doesnt make you a fighter. say whatever you want, train in any way you want, think whatever you want. it doesnt matter. the delusion is yours and yours alone and in most cases you will die of old age never knowing the reality anyway.

I perfer to use MY Experience with violence to practice martial arts that may let me get home to take care of my family.
Let me put this out there something that has happen to me.
I was in the park practicing my forms and 3 guys came up to me saying they want to fight me. I explained to them I really don't know how to fight very well and they would easily win if we had a boxing type of match. They insisted so I said to them, How do you know I am not going to treat this as a life or death fight? How do you know I don't have a hidden knife in my sleeves of my shirt and behind my back and prepared to stab you as soon as you try to punch me, I said you want to fight I want to go home and take care of my kids. What I am saying is yes you don't need to do martial arts to be a fighter that is something within true some of the toughest guys I know are just tough guys which is fine but as soon as we get into martial arts and talking about what works and what is BS then we need to make sure that we are not fooling ourselves and others in it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem with being big is that you have to carry the weight. I weigh 200 pounds and that's 200 pounds I have to carry

 

[mograph]

I was in the park practicing my forms and 3 guys came up to me saying they want to fight me. I explained to them I really don't know how to fight very well and they would easily win if we had a boxing type of match. They insisted so I said to them, How do you know I am not going to treat this as a life or death fight? How do you know I don't have a hidden knife in my sleeves of my shirt and behind my back and prepared to stab you as soon as you try to punch me, I said you want to fight I want to go home and take care of my kids.

So what happened? How did they react?

 

[oaktree]

They said oh well.... we didn't know, I said exactly you don't know your opponent so never assume he is unarmed or is going to fight fair. I don't mean to come off on this thread as a bad *** I am no where near that I'm a family guy now but I'll say I've been in the environment enough to know what is bs and not bs, the internal arts have some good stuff for realistic fighting and if people get into internals arts for say health relaxation I can totally support that hell that is why I got into it initially, but I don't want to set the internal arts in the fighting context with unrealistic applications and expectations. Same as a compliance training partner May build a false sense of realism.

 

[oaktree]

The problem with being big is that you have to carry the weight. I weigh 200 pounds and that's 200 pounds I have to carry

Well some guys at 200 can move that faster then me at 165. Some guys know how to use that weight to their advantage.

 

[tshadowchaser]

For decades there have been usually two camps to internal arts the ones who do it more for a dance and health and the ones who train it as a martial arts with the added benefit of health. There seems to be a third camp and that is the ones who attempt to train it as a martial art but train in it with a false pretense of what fighting is and about. This to me is very dangerous because it is better to either know how to fight or not know how to fight then think you know how to fight but really don't know how to fight."
______________________________________________________________________

To me knowing how to fight no matter your choice of art is better than not knowing how to fight or thinking you know how but in reality not having a clue.
What I find to be of more value is the mental aspect of "I will survive no matter what happens and I will do whatever is nessicary to survive."
Fighting bigger people or smaller that mental attitue must be there.

Doing excercises like push hands has its benifits and perhaps should be done at different speeds and maybe intensity at times. No one in the street is likely to say "lets push hands" but you may be able to apply the principles of push haands once you touch your opponet.

As for knife work that really is a different monster but knowing how to keep contact and stay in flow dose have some simularities to push hands at times.

( sorry folks my spell check dose not seem to be working)

 

[oaktree]

I agree the mental attitude definitely needs to be there and on another note we see the false sense of security or accomplishment if we manage to push someone down or apply a joint lock on a non resistance opponent.
I love internal arts I love Taijiquan and aikido and all these arts but as practitioners of these arts we should examine them in a realistic view IF we want to use them in that context.

 

[hoshin1600]

Oaktree ,
i want to clarify my post. i did not intend my post to be a counter to yours, for the most part i agree with you. i did use the term "you" but i meant it as a collective you, as in most people. it was in no way intended as you and you alone nor was it directed at you.

 

[oaktree]

Oaktree ,
i want to clarify my post. i did not intend my post to be a counter to yours, for the most part i agree with you. i did use the term "you" but i meant it as a collective you, as in most people. it was in no way intended as you and you alone nor was it directed at you.

I think counters to post and critical thinking is crucial in martial arts so even though I can be guilty of my own passionate blindness that may be heated at times my videos of myself on YouTube actually show me to be rather awkward and introvert.

 

[Zeny]

Oaktree, why did people try to kill you? What happened?

 

[Zeny]

Just watched the chen xiao wang vs liao bai video.

When i push hands with friends who practise external styles, the lightning quick push is the only thing they know how to do. Good if i want to try out something different, but pretty much useless if i want to practise the subtle elements of push hands. Anyway i digress, this thread is about fighting.

 

[oaktree]

Oaktree, why did people try to kill you? What happened?

People on drugs, People try to rob me, people bored, people in gangs its just how I grew up in.

i digress, this thread is about fighting.

Ya this thread is more about the fighting and the reality of it. However on other threads concerning neijia we can talk all about Daojiao and Fojiao and Neidan practices. 我是一个和尚

 

[Buka]

Thank God BS is limited to Internal Arts. Geesh, had me worried there for a bit.