BRUCE CALKINS & US MARINE CORP

[Tgace]

Fellas I could be wrong(most like me) I do believe the Marines droped there line program

Not between 80-84 they hadn't.

for ther own martial arts training with belts and all. Not to say the claims are true but there is a thing called the freedom of information act. Plus why do we not end this crud and talk about positive stuff.

The MCMAP is only a few years old now.

As to "fraud busting", "witch hunts" etc. I think the Admins/Mods here have done probably the wisest thing they could do..limit the threads to one forum and moderate them so they dont get too out of control. That way those who dont want to see/participate in them can just ignore them and not have to find them in forums they participate in.

Its a delicate balance between exposing "wrongs" that shouldnt be ignored and "witch hunts" that burn people who are undeserving and detrimental to the arts as a whole.

 

[Robert Carver]

bushi jon:

The LINE program came into existence in the late 1980's. When I was at Parris Island, I was on the Parris Island Rifle and Pistol Team (1987) and served with the creator of the LINE program, then Staff Sergeant Ronald Donvito. SSgt Donvito claimed to be a brown belt in Shotokan Karate at that time, and could never get him to come and train with the Karate club I ran on base. After the Eastern Division matches, SSgt Donvito was selected to shoot on THE Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team at Quantico. It was while he was there that he managed to catch the ear of the right folks and sold them on the LINE program. It was at least a year after later that the LINE program came into existence. As stated previously by myself and Gunny Craik, the Marine Corps did not have a close combat "program" per se, but merely taught a few Judo throws and the bayonet.

 

[Soulend]

Robert and I probably got bit by some of the same sand fleas, as I was in boot camp in 1987 (July-Sept). There was no L.I.N.E. at this time (and thus not in 80-84 either). Which is why I said "pre-L.I.N.E." in my previous post. L.I.N.E. was later dropped (or just the boxing part..I can't recall now), because some kid with an undisclosed and pre-existing condition got his retina detached by a punch. It certainly helps to read a thread before responding to same.

Of course, this could all be cleared up with some elaboration on Mr. Calkins' part, but he appears unwilling to do so. It would be equally enlightening to hear from Captain Smith who posted on his guest book and lists his 'style' as USMC Special Forces Training.

-David Craik

 

[bushi jon]

I am not saying this guy is not crazy what I am saying is it is not worth the time or effort of me or anyone else on this board. I came to martial talk because we did not bash people on and on and on.

 

[Tripitaka of AA]

The value of a "Witch-Hunt", in this and similar cases... is the clear and unambiguous message sent to any other person foolish enough to try and build a reputation with their chequebook and their imagination.

If you had ever entertained the notion that you could set up a school, do a few flyers and "hey-presto" become a millionaire Martial Artist, you'd probably find out quite soon that it isn't that simple. There may be a temptation then, to slip into the land of "advertising language", where your achievements are enlarged, your abilities extended beyond anything that "normal" people might have to offer. This is when someone needs to show you the "Caution! Ego can lead to a fall" sign. Calkins just has all the right elements to make him the perfect Fable - The Super Soke that finally couldn't.

I doubt very much that you'll find a Reader of these threads who hasn't come away "educated". The moral of the tale is... say it with me ... two shodans do not make a judan .. or in this thread in particular, NEVER CLAIM A MILITARY RECORD THAT IS ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT IT IS.

 

[Soulend]

I am not saying this guy is not crazy what I am saying is it is not worth the time or effort of me or anyone else on this board. I came to martial talk because we did not bash people on and on and on.

I, for one, haven't 'bashed' a soul. I simply pointed out that Mr. Calkins' statement does not mesh with the facts. Claims made in a public domain are subject to scrutiny, as well they should be. The martial arts world is chockabloc full of the wildest and most bizarre claims on the planet, many which should not be taken at face value, and quite a few which are patently false and/or fraudulent.

I'm pretty new here, but it seems to me that this subforum (Horror Stories and The Great Debate) was created for this express purpose, much like 'Baffling Budo' over at e-budo.com. Seeing as how 'The Great Debate' has 1,470 posts in it, I suppose whether or not it is worth time or effort is subjective. One always has the option of not visiting this category or subforum if one disagrees with it's intent.

I'm going out of state later today for about three weeks, but if Mr. Calkins could provide any information at all about this Self Defense School - even something as small as where it was located - it is only a short trip to Parris Island for me. The current Parris Island museum curator is a walking treasure trove of information, and Public Works has records of what every existing building on the Island was used for during any period in it's history. If there was a work order to fix a toilet in "The Self Defense School" in building 641 in 1983, they will likely still have it in their archives - those guys are historical packrats. In addition, the Drill Instructor's Association has membership going all the way back to D.I.'s in WWII. So it would be easy enough to verify the claim, but I'm hardly wasting the effort if Mr. Calkins is not even going to bother responding.

Personally if any claim I made was questioned, I would be happy to provide any proof required so that my integrity would not fall into doubt. But maybe that's just me.

 

[arnisador]

I'd like to point out that I've taught Navy SEALs and Army Rangers.

(I taught them math. at NPS in Monterey, CA...but, I taught them!)

So, sign me "Soke"!

 

[Satori]

I'm a recent addition to the MT family, but I was also in the Marine Corps a few years ago. I'd like to add another perspective, if I may.

I was "born" at MCRD, San Diego with a deliver length of 6 months. The standard boot camp lasts 13 weeks (one week for processing), but I fractured both of my shins 10 weeks in and had to spend 3 months at MRP (Military Rehabilitation Platoon) learning how to walk/run properly. Good times.

Of course, the Marine Corps (err...Naval) methods of physical therapy are terrible, and I was deemed unfit to carry on to MCT. In other words, I had to spend another 3 months in BMP (Basic Marine Platoon) rehabilitating my damn shins again.

Anyway...my point...

While I was a Private stationed on MCRD, I came across a building called the "Marine Corps Martial Arts Department". MCMAP had been recently added, and this building was where people could go for training/testing up to Brown Instructor (Black Instructor was acquired at TBS in Quantico, I believe). The building was run by two hardcore ex-DI Staff Sergeants, and the place was constantly buzzing with Marines. I went there EVERY lunch period to train.

I do have a point besides telling my life story...

1. I haven't been to PI, but there WAS a "Close Combat Training Facility" in SD. There could have been one in PI.

2. As someone said earlier, the place was run by DIs, and frequented by by Staff NCOs. I was something of an oddity, sort of the "pet junior marine" that the Staff NCOs took under their wing. Definately NOT normal, and I would NEVER have "taught Marines" in this capacity.

Just another point of view.

May you achieve
Satori

 

[RBaddorf]

Satori,

The Marine Martial Arts Program was not in existence when I retired in 1995. Mr Calkins is talking about a period in time that was even 10 years before that. As a retired Marine teaching an after hours karate class through MWR at the gym at MCAS Yuma in 2002 with Mr Mark Syck, I contacted MGySgt Cardo Urso at Quantico, VA about obtaining a copy of the list of techniques taught in the MMAP. The Master Gunney said that only ACTIVE DUTY Marines could be trained in the program, and even he as one of the main participants in setting the program up would be no longer associated with it when he retired. We had hoped to help some of our students with their required techniques.

As a side note, I retired from the Marine Corps from MCAS Beaufort, SC. We were contantly on MCRD Parris Island as we had the resposiblity of clearing duds on the grenade range and combate infiltration course. My ex-wife studied Aikido on Parris Island thru a MWR program. At the time I was there (1993-1996) there was no "school" as described by Mr. Calkins.

When were you at MCRD San Diego?

Just my 2 cents.

Hey Dave, (Soulend) how ya been?

Ron Baddorf
GySgt USMC (Ret)

 

[Mark Weiser]

Sheesssh I must be old lol. I was at MCRD San Diego back in 1980 lol lol

 

[Don Roley]

At the time I was there (1993-1996) there was no "school" as described by Mr. Calkins.

And of course, it would be nice if Bruce either gave some information to back up his claims of being a marine and being associated with this school, or admit he lied and apologize.

 

[Tgace]

I just have to wonder about people who make claims like this. I would think they would suspect that there are service/prior-service people here.....

 

[Gene Williams]

Geez, Don, Just go to the guy's website. He clearly doesn't know what he's doing. He's swinging toy kama around by strings, has student's "playing" with "chucks," probably has never received a legitimate rank in his life. Just another made up wannabee taking people's money and time.

 

[The Kai]

Man I tell you you can hit some guys over the head, over and over till it can't help but be obvious!

 

[Satori]

Mr. Baddorf-

-Oorah Gunny! I was in MCRD San Diego in 2001, where I started with Bravo Co 1st BN, went to MRP, then graduated with Alpha Co 1st BN. I was discharged last year (year and a half, really) because of the same darn shin injuries.

I went to the "Marine Corps Martial Arts Facility" while I was a "Basic Marine" stationed in BMP for medical rehabilitation.

Now, perhaps my description was inadequate, for I never said this place was a "school". It was more like a large garage with a crud load of MCMAP training gear. The place was run by two Staff NCOs, who were both ex-DIs who had finished their requisite "Drill Time".

It was (probably still is) located about 300 feet back from the Drill Deck, to the left of the recruit barracks, on the right side of the street. If I remember correctly, to the left was the huge S-1 Staff Admin buildings. It was located around where the recruit PX/Barber and Dry Cleaner was. Behind it were the large "Recruit Personal Item Storage" buildings.

I'm not sure if I can be more exact than that. I could drop the names of the Staff NCOs that ran it, and the NCO that tested me for my "Grey Belt" there (I was the only Grey Belt in MCT).

If the same Staff NCOs are still there, then I'm sure at least one of them would recognize me, or at least remember the "lone private who came in every day".

May you achieve
Satori

 

[RBaddorf]

Satori-san,

I think the only time I was on MCRD San Diego was in 1988 when the son of a friend of mine was graduating boot. I went to PI 1 Jul 75 to 28 Sep 75, Plt 172 B Co, 1st Bn. Retired out of MCAS Beaufort 30 Nov 95 as the NCOIC of the Joint EOD Teams MCAS Beaufort. Good to see other Marines involved in the martial arts. One of the green belt instructors at MCAS Yuma was an EOD tech. I used to go the EOD shop a few years ago when I was living in Yuma, and work with him a little. MGySgt Cardo Urso was instramental in putting togeather the Marine Martial Arts Program (from my understanding). He is a 6th Dan in Ryukyu Kempo so alot of the MMAP is based on Kempo. I am not sure which organization (he told me who he trained under in Okinawa, but I'm old and the memory is shot ). He is the same guy that sells the video tapes in Black Belt on grappling. Very polite and knowledgable individual when I talked to him on the phone. I think there should be more emphasis on fixing what they do to each other ( but I am more into the healing side right now), but the program overall looks very good. Here is a link you may find interesting. http://kentokukan.dezines.com/articles/marinesandmartialarts.htm

Semper Fi

Ron

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ladies and Gentlemen,
The circus has gone on long enough. Based on an extended and extensive discussion among the members of the MartialTalk Administration team, and the Martial Talk Steering Board, of the comments made publicly, as well as information received from several other forums, Mr. Bruce Calkins' membership here has been revoked.


MartialTalk is a forum for the friendly discussion of the arts. To preserve that friendly environment, disruptive influences are not welcome, and will be removed after careful and deliberate consideration by our staff.


At this point, the matter is ended. Please drop it, and move on.


Thank you,
- MartialTalk Administration Team-

 

[KenpoTess]

Thread Locked as per Admin Directive