Brother art?
- Thread starter Kenpodoc
- Start date
Doc
Senior Master
No sir, I had never discussed this before because no one ever asked. Figures it would be you.Kenpodoc said:
Ed Parker's Kenpo Business Model shares a strong similarity to the Commercial Kung-fu, "San Soo." The basic structure was the same. Based on elaboarte self-defense techniques while wearing Japanese uniforms and belt rankings, it 'looks' the same. But under the skin the business model was also the same in recruitment, business structure, student retention techniqes, student manuals, etc.
The most obvious difference upon observation is the techniques are practiced at a much slower pace. Faster than Taiji but slower tan commercial Kenpo. The attacker mirrors this pacing as well as the defender, and all of the reactions to the strikes, which are also taught, also mirror this unusual rhythm between attacker and defender.
Doc said:No sir, I had never discussed this before because no one ever asked. Figures it would be you.
Ed Parker's Kenpo Business Model shares a strong similarity to the Commercial Kung-fu, "San Soo." The basic structure was the same. Based on elaboarte self-defense techniques while wearing Japanese uniforms and belt rankings, it 'looks' the same. But under the skin the business model was also the same in recruitment, business structure, student retention techniqes, student manuals, etc.
The most obvious difference upon observation is the techniques are practiced at a much slower pace. Faster than Taiji but slower tan commercial Kenpo. The attacker mirrors this pacing as well as the defender, and all of the reactions to the strikes, which are also taught, also mirror this unusual rhythm between attacker and defender.
Hiya Doc,
What do you mean by "slower pace"?
I did not get that impression at all. Sure when first learning the technique(s) - they are done at a slower pace - but so was my Kenpo training. Speed & power in both attacks & defenses came after the student has a firm grasp of the movement(s).
JamesB
Green Belt
After doing a bit of surfing it seems that Mr Parker interacted to some degree with the 'san soo crowd', and that the originator of the san soo system in the states was a man called Jimmy H Woo. Is this the same Jimmy Woo that was an associate of Mr Parker (who taught for him at some time?)... if this is the case that would then contribute to some similarities between the two systems (AK and San Soo)?
Doc
Senior Master
No sir, they are two different people. James H. Woo, and James W. Woo. To avoid confusion, James W. was mostly referred to as "Jimmy Woo." Nevertheless, Ed Parker did, interact and influence James H. in creating the business of "Commercial Kung-fu." The only system to successfully make that leap on a reasoable large scale. The "W" in James Woo's name stands for "Wing" for James Wing Woo.JamesB said:
Doc
Senior Master
Perhaps that is your experience sir, and I respect your perspective. However traditionally San Soo classes were intentionally created and designed to function in this mid range speed to specifically position and separate the art from traditional Taiji, and function much closer to Taijiquan in application, according to Messrs. H. Woo and E. Parker.Toasty said:
I know of Kenpo Karate schools who do not engage in any physical contact, however clearly the sysytem is not designed to function in this manner.
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
Hello Doc and others. I just wanted to respond to San Soo as a brother art to Ed Parker's Kenpo. Maybe this will add clarification from my POV.
I have been in San Soo for 33 years and have taught it for 30 About the only thing similarity between the two styles of KFSS and Ed Parker Kenpo is their Chinese roots, mannerisms and that both men resided for a time in Hawaii. Ed Parker frequently spoke with Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo and for a time Jimmy shared Ideas with him. Maybe Ed with Jimmy H. Woo. The method of training is very chinese and not unusual for a choy lay fut similar art, but there, in my view is where the similarity ends. Kenpo is far more linear and has a different balance and feel. It is also more patterned. It's emphasis on faster hand movement. When I read Ed Parker's Book I was surprised that many of my personal teachings on stances and usage were remarkably the same. I suspect that I am far more circular, however.
I invite any and all to visit if you are curious as to our content and "style". I can be reached at kfss@sansooreseda.com. My
site has some clips for viewing. www.sansooreseda.com/videos.html
Master Paul Borisoff
I have been in San Soo for 33 years and have taught it for 30 About the only thing similarity between the two styles of KFSS and Ed Parker Kenpo is their Chinese roots, mannerisms and that both men resided for a time in Hawaii. Ed Parker frequently spoke with Grand Master Jimmy H. Woo and for a time Jimmy shared Ideas with him. Maybe Ed with Jimmy H. Woo. The method of training is very chinese and not unusual for a choy lay fut similar art, but there, in my view is where the similarity ends. Kenpo is far more linear and has a different balance and feel. It is also more patterned. It's emphasis on faster hand movement. When I read Ed Parker's Book I was surprised that many of my personal teachings on stances and usage were remarkably the same. I suspect that I am far more circular, however.
I invite any and all to visit if you are curious as to our content and "style". I can be reached at kfss@sansooreseda.com. My
site has some clips for viewing. www.sansooreseda.com/videos.html
Master Paul Borisoff
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
After reading the thread and reading a little more between the lines, I must say that Jimmy H. Woo, (chin sui dek) was of a different era (than Ed Parker) He had more in common with ark huey wong, his contemporary. I can't comment on the relationship that Jimmy H. Woo had with Ed Parker, but people longer than my 32 years in the art, know nothing of it.
Perhaps the commercialism you are speaking of is with ill-fated business associate, Frank Woolsey. Jimmy had no manuals till very late in his teachings. He discouraged courses and published lessons. There were some personal notes of several students that made their way around and late in his teachings he sold 5 books of lessons and forms to his instructors to try to bring uniformity. They were only available to blackbelt and above. Commercial books were a no, no. Sudden Violence being one of the first.
More on Frank Woolsey. In the early 70s, a franchised school under Frank Woolsey, adopted a highly commercial model with a manual. The practice was repugnant to Jimmy H. Woo and he split with Frank. The manual was one of the issues that led to the business split.
When I asked Jimmy about advertising in the yellow pages and other campaigns he told me to save my money. So I suspect that the idea of being commercialized comes squarely from the Woolsey dealings. There was a lot of money to be made in the early 70's and Frank made it. By the way, Jimmy rarely visited affiliate schools, and taught vast and rich art in a way that a large number of americans appreciated. There were no Kung Fu Uniforms in the early 70s, so he used the heavy Judo Gi at first and then sold his associate teachers light to medium weight karate gis. We are to an extent a throwing art, and other uniform types just did not hold up. There was no testing regimen, The belt represented the class of lesson, mastered and took a rather lengthy time to achieve. In 1976 the highest rank was 2nd degree black. As our "association" asserted itself belt began to be given out faster. In 1976, a second degree was a big deal.
Jimmy made money at a time when kung fu made money. He kept control of his group in a way that benefited them and himself. He showed lots of great stuff and held the respect of his american students for over 30 years.
I have personally taught many students who have emerged from american kenpo and never have felt that they were similar in the least. Kuk sul is closer.
And so Doc et al, I have been as close to this system as many. There has never been "business plan". If anything the structure was "loose".
It is a management style suited for a vast art and the american mind. There has been no tournements, no testing, no required association, no contracts. And I believe, no contact with Ed Parker for over 30 years.
Certainly there are other San Soo Instructors who were closer and with Jimmy H. Woo longer. I don't think they will have a different view.
Jimmy did not contrast arts. He found it best to do his thing his way and do his best.
Finally, Grandmaster Jimmy H. Woo's business plan was a sign in book, 35 bucks a month and a big heart and big smile. He was the real thing and we miss him. In this day and age, big hearts and big smiles don't count for much. His passing was the end of an era. What you see now in his wake is a mixed bag.
A lot of good and yes in some, more commercialism.
Master Paul H. Borisoff
Perhaps the commercialism you are speaking of is with ill-fated business associate, Frank Woolsey. Jimmy had no manuals till very late in his teachings. He discouraged courses and published lessons. There were some personal notes of several students that made their way around and late in his teachings he sold 5 books of lessons and forms to his instructors to try to bring uniformity. They were only available to blackbelt and above. Commercial books were a no, no. Sudden Violence being one of the first.
More on Frank Woolsey. In the early 70s, a franchised school under Frank Woolsey, adopted a highly commercial model with a manual. The practice was repugnant to Jimmy H. Woo and he split with Frank. The manual was one of the issues that led to the business split.
When I asked Jimmy about advertising in the yellow pages and other campaigns he told me to save my money. So I suspect that the idea of being commercialized comes squarely from the Woolsey dealings. There was a lot of money to be made in the early 70's and Frank made it. By the way, Jimmy rarely visited affiliate schools, and taught vast and rich art in a way that a large number of americans appreciated. There were no Kung Fu Uniforms in the early 70s, so he used the heavy Judo Gi at first and then sold his associate teachers light to medium weight karate gis. We are to an extent a throwing art, and other uniform types just did not hold up. There was no testing regimen, The belt represented the class of lesson, mastered and took a rather lengthy time to achieve. In 1976 the highest rank was 2nd degree black. As our "association" asserted itself belt began to be given out faster. In 1976, a second degree was a big deal.
Jimmy made money at a time when kung fu made money. He kept control of his group in a way that benefited them and himself. He showed lots of great stuff and held the respect of his american students for over 30 years.
I have personally taught many students who have emerged from american kenpo and never have felt that they were similar in the least. Kuk sul is closer.
And so Doc et al, I have been as close to this system as many. There has never been "business plan". If anything the structure was "loose".
It is a management style suited for a vast art and the american mind. There has been no tournements, no testing, no required association, no contracts. And I believe, no contact with Ed Parker for over 30 years.
Certainly there are other San Soo Instructors who were closer and with Jimmy H. Woo longer. I don't think they will have a different view.
Jimmy did not contrast arts. He found it best to do his thing his way and do his best.
Finally, Grandmaster Jimmy H. Woo's business plan was a sign in book, 35 bucks a month and a big heart and big smile. He was the real thing and we miss him. In this day and age, big hearts and big smiles don't count for much. His passing was the end of an era. What you see now in his wake is a mixed bag.
A lot of good and yes in some, more commercialism.
Master Paul H. Borisoff
Welcome PBMaster! It's an honor to have you here, and hear from one who truly knows the system. Please keep sharing sir!
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
You are welcome!
Hope that I can shed some light on San Soo. I have little knowledge of the Kenpo System.
Regarding speed...
It is natural to view things from our own circumstances. San Soo is not a departure from traditional choy lay fut, because it is not, choy lay fut, per se. It is Jimmy H. Woo's Family art. The art is slow because the technique, properly performed is extremely dangerous. As such, carelessness can not be tolerated or condoned. Portions of the human body only take so much and move so fast. To go faster, certain traps and type of movements must be eliminated. However, it would no longer be combat. A miscalculation or resistance to a movement leads to certain injury.
Several years ago a misdirected leg trap, caused by the upper body movement of the partner, imparted spiral breaks in both tibia and fibia. A total of seven fractures. $20,000 and a rod down the tibia, he was repaired.
And so Jimmy H. Woo kept it tamer in the end. This to avoid injury, law suits.
I am a violinist and I approach instruction as a violinist approaches music. In a sense, the instrument we learn to play is our own body. Foundation and technique, accuracy and integrity are most important. Speed develops, but the potential for injury exponentially increases.
In addition San Soo is a circular art and cutting tighter circles make fast linear motion less necessary.
The linear motion more typical of karate arts is more circular due to a closer in-fighting preference.
In principal kenpo and san soo must share similarities. Fighting being fighting and human bodies being similar. Chinese root.
Hope this helps.
Paul H. Borisoff, Master, KFSS
Hope that I can shed some light on San Soo. I have little knowledge of the Kenpo System.
Regarding speed...
It is natural to view things from our own circumstances. San Soo is not a departure from traditional choy lay fut, because it is not, choy lay fut, per se. It is Jimmy H. Woo's Family art. The art is slow because the technique, properly performed is extremely dangerous. As such, carelessness can not be tolerated or condoned. Portions of the human body only take so much and move so fast. To go faster, certain traps and type of movements must be eliminated. However, it would no longer be combat. A miscalculation or resistance to a movement leads to certain injury.
Several years ago a misdirected leg trap, caused by the upper body movement of the partner, imparted spiral breaks in both tibia and fibia. A total of seven fractures. $20,000 and a rod down the tibia, he was repaired.
And so Jimmy H. Woo kept it tamer in the end. This to avoid injury, law suits.
I am a violinist and I approach instruction as a violinist approaches music. In a sense, the instrument we learn to play is our own body. Foundation and technique, accuracy and integrity are most important. Speed develops, but the potential for injury exponentially increases.
In addition San Soo is a circular art and cutting tighter circles make fast linear motion less necessary.
The linear motion more typical of karate arts is more circular due to a closer in-fighting preference.
In principal kenpo and san soo must share similarities. Fighting being fighting and human bodies being similar. Chinese root.
Hope this helps.
Paul H. Borisoff, Master, KFSS
Yes!
I have had very limited exposure to San Soo in the past, but, I would definitely say that there is nothing "commercial" about it. It was truly Fighting, in the strictist sense.
I have had very limited exposure to San Soo in the past, but, I would definitely say that there is nothing "commercial" about it. It was truly Fighting, in the strictist sense.
PBMaster
Yellow Belt
Martial Arts were designed, on one level, to do damage. As such we must handle them as we would our finest and best weapons. Art raises the mundane and primitive to a truly human level. One of the differences of man and beast.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well and in keeping with what it is designed to do. And it is worth mentioning that all our respective martial studies are termed "art". We should all strive to keep our hearts pure and our pursuits honorable.
Jimmy H. Woo was a good example. He was a gracious man. A powerful man. A charismatic personality. As such a born leader and teacher.
He lived in a time, when, in his youth, fighting was a necessary skill and he lived to tell of it.
I have my views on things San Soo. You might look over my comments at http://www.sansooreseda.com/masters.html
Thanks for your kind thoughts.
Master Paul Borisoff
Anything worth doing is worth doing well and in keeping with what it is designed to do. And it is worth mentioning that all our respective martial studies are termed "art". We should all strive to keep our hearts pure and our pursuits honorable.
Jimmy H. Woo was a good example. He was a gracious man. A powerful man. A charismatic personality. As such a born leader and teacher.
He lived in a time, when, in his youth, fighting was a necessary skill and he lived to tell of it.
I have my views on things San Soo. You might look over my comments at http://www.sansooreseda.com/masters.html
Thanks for your kind thoughts.
Master Paul Borisoff
Very well said Sir!
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for the link.
Thanks for the information, Mr. Borisoff, and Welcome to Martial Talk. It is great to have you here and I appreciate the knowledge and experience you bring. :asian:
green meanie
Master Black Belt
Thanks for the info. :asian:
Doc
Senior Master
Your comments are well taken sir, and I met Frank many years ago. Nevertheless, although I am not nor have ever been a San Soo student, your videos validate my position on the 'speed' issue. My other comments were a reiteration from both Mr. Woo and Mr. Parker whom I also happen to have known. Mr. Woo's prescense at Ark Wong's Kwoon was indeed a normal occurrance along with James W. Woo as well. "Tiny' Lefiti was also involved in those discussions with James Woo as well as Dan Inosanto, but it was Mr. Parker who influenced almost everyone's business plan. His hand print is on almost all who are in the studio business of selling an art to men, women, and children. Thank you for your participation.PBMaster said:
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