British government spells end of 'i before e' rule

[elder999]

Seen here

LONDON – It's a spelling mantra that generations of schoolchildren have learned — "i before e, except after c."
But new British government guidance tells teachers not to pass on the rule to students, because there are too many exceptions.

Have to admit that I learned this with the addendum, and about a hundred other exceptions

"It's heinous!" shrieked the beseiged sheikh with the weird mien, "you cannot induce me to imbibe a surfeit of caffein! I'd as lief have protein!" he said, as he seized a saddle of mutton, and proceeded to munch it beside the weir. :lol:

 

[girlbug2]

Yes indeed, that is one of the few rules that stuck with me for life. Knowing when and where to apply it never gave me a problem, but it does sometimes for others without the spelling "knack" if you will. So off with its head!

 

[Tez3]

Seen here



Have to admit that I learned this with the addendum, and about a hundred other exceptions

"It's heinous!" shrieked the beseiged sheikh with the weird mien, "you cannot induce me to imbibe a surfeit of caffein! I'd as lief have protein!" he said, as he seized a saddle of mutton, and proceeded to munch it beside the weir. :lol:

caffein?

 

[elder999]

caffein?

Good one, but "caffein" is the original and now somewhat archaic spelling of the word, from the German kaffein, so named by Friedrich Runge, a German chemist who discovered it, and named it "from coffee

From the usually excellent American Heritage English Language Technical Manual:

caf·feine also caf·fein (k

-f

n

, k

f

n

, k

f

-

n)
n. A bitter white alkaloid, C8H10N4O2, often derived from tea or coffee and used in medicine chiefly as a mild stimulant and to treat certain kinds of headache

German Kaffein (from Kaffee, coffee) or French caféine, both from French café, coffee; see café.]

 

[Xue Sheng]

We should all just follow Mark Twain and be done with it

A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

 

[arnisador]

I like that rule (and learned "...or when sounded like ay, as in neighbor and weigh" as an addendum), but I see the reasoning!

 

[Tez3]

We have a big political thing thing about immigrants and the fact that many never learn to speak English, I don't think it's that they don't want to, I just think that it's possibly next to Xhosa the most difficult language to learn and they give up trying!

I was watching an English/Iranian comedienne on tv last night, very funny, she was born here but while not knocking Americans she was curious to know why they pronounce Iraq and Iran as 'Eyeraq' and 'Eyeran' but don't say 'eyemigration'. Must admit that struck a chord, it's the same with a lot of words, they one that come most to mind with me is 'bouy', we just say 'boy' but when I first heard an American say the word I had absolutely no idea what he meant. There must be words that we say too?

 

[Tez3]

I like this bit in the original article though

"(This version CORRECTS spelling of Bovill, sted Bovell, in graf 4.)"

 

[elder999]

We have a big political thing thing about immigrants and the fact that many never learn to speak English, I don't think it's that they don't want to, I just think that it's possibly next to Xhosa the most difficult language to learn and they give up trying!

I was watching an English/Iranian comedienne on tv last night, very funny, she was born here but while not knocking Americans she was curious to know why they pronounce Iraq and Iran as 'Eyeraq' and 'Eyeran' but don't say 'eyemigration'. Must admit that struck a chord, it's the same with a lot of words, they one that come most to mind with me is 'bouy', we just say 'boy' but when I first heard an American say the word I had absolutely no idea what he meant. There must be words that we say too?

Yeah, we could start with "buoy." :lol:

In boarding school, I had a chemsitry teacher who was from the Isle of Man. He was also coach of the sailing team. With him, "buoy" was just the beginning, especially since I was 13 years old, and he sounded kind of like he was talking with a couple of spoonfuls of oatmeal in his mouth, with a few marbles thrown in for good measure! Anyway, it was a little alarming the first time he mentioned tacking around the first boy-I thought at first he meant that there was an actual boy out in the lake, treading water!


We say "schedule," skedual, while y'all say shjewel-though that one's easy enough to decipher. In fact, most of the pronunciation differences aren't so rough,especially in context, unless you're a 13 year old student still wiping sleep from his eyes.....:lol:
Sometimes we all use different words........well, differently. Most of those are easy enough to understand, but sometimes strange to the ear, like when he'd say "we are racing against Choate at the weekend" where most Americans would say "on the weekend." We (Americans) were "on the sailing team", but for him we were "in the team." At least I was "in the team" until I got cut.....I liked lacrosse more, anyway.:lol:

I ran a facility for a while (can't say which one) where we occasionally (can't say how often) hosted some scientists from England (can't say what for). Understanding those fellows was easy enough, but it could be interesting at times-like when they spoke of coming through the desert on the "dual-carriage way," meaning, of course, Interstate-25, which is, well, simply a divided highway here....

Never did quite get around that whole "honor/honour, color/colour" dichotomy, though-reckon y'all think we can't spell! :lol:

 

[Big Don]

England and America are two countries separated by a common language.

George Bernard Shaw

 

[Tez3]

Yeah, we could start with "buoy." :lol:

In boarding school, I had a chemsitry teacher who was from the Isle of Man. He was also coach of the sailing team. With him, "buoy" was just the beginning, especially since I was 13 years old, and he sounded kind of like he was talking with a couple of spoonfuls of oatmeal in his mouth, with a few marbles thrown in for good measure! Anyway, it was a little alarming the first time he mentioned tacking around the first boy-I thought at first he meant that there was an actual boy out in the lake, treading water!


We say "schedule," skedual, while y'all say shjewel-though that one's easy enough to decipher. In fact, most of the pronunciation differences aren't so rough,especially in context, unless you're a 13 year old student still wiping sleep from his eyes.....:lol:
Sometimes we all use different words........well, differently. Most of those are easy enough to understand, but sometimes strange to the ear, like when he'd say "we are racing against Choate at the weekend" where most Americans would say "on the weekend." We (Americans) were "on the sailing team", but for him we were "in the team." At least I was "in the team" until I got cut.....I liked lacrosse more, anyway.:lol:

I ran a facility for a while (can't say which one) where we occasionally (can't say how often) hosted some scientists from England (can't say what for). Understanding those fellows was easy enough, but it could be interesting at times-like when they spoke of coming through the desert on the "dual-carriage way," meaning, of course, Interstate-25, which is, well, simply a divided highway here....

Never did quite get around that whole "honor/honour, color/colour" dichotomy, though-reckon y'all think we can't spell! :lol:

Ah the Isle of man, you know that the guy wasn't British don't you, I'm guessing he probably lectured you on that too lol!

I think the differences are interesting but in the scientific world perhaps the differences could cause problems?

I do like words!
This is a good site you get a newletter every week about words, use and misuse of,some very funny, all interesting.
http://www.worldwidewords.org

 

[crushing]

I was watching an English/Iranian comedienne on tv last night, very funny, she was born here but while not knocking Americans she was curious to know why they pronounce Iraq and Iran as 'Eyeraq' and 'Eyeran' but don't say 'eyemigration'. Must admit that struck a chord, it's the same with a lot of words, they one that come most to mind with me is 'bouy', we just say 'boy' but when I first heard an American say the word I had absolutely no idea what he meant. There must be words that we say too?

I have an Eyedea! First, I've heard the countries pronounced various ways by Americans; Eye-rock, Ear-ock, Eye-rack, Ear-ack and Eye-ran, Ear-ran, Eye-ron, Ear-ron. There is probably less variety in the way 'immigration' is pronounced because of the two consonants that follow the beginning 'i'. The way Americans pronounce Idaho may influence how they pronounce the names of other geopolitical entities that begin similarly.

Yeahhhhhhh buoy!!!!!

 

[Tez3]

I have an Eyedea! First, I've heard the countries pronounced various ways by Americans; Eye-rock, Ear-ock, Eye-rack, Ear-ack and Eye-ran, Ear-ran, Eye-ron, Ear-ron. There is probably less variety in the way 'immigration' is pronounced because of the two consonants that follow the beginning 'i'. The way Americans pronounce Idaho may influence how they pronounce the names of other geopolitical entities that begin similarly.

Yeahhhhhhh buoy!!!!!

I can see where the i and e bit come from but bouy just defeats me because I cannot see how you pronounce it that way lol!

 

[howard]

Tez, OK, I'm now curious... how is "buoy" pronounced in proper British English?

I lived in London for nearly a year a good while back, but I don't recall ever hearing a Brit say "buoy". I guess I should have talked more about maritime themes.

 

[Tez3]

Tez, OK, I'm now curious... how is "buoy" pronounced in proper British English?

I lived in London for nearly a year a good while back, but I don't recall ever hearing a Brit say "buoy". I guess I should have talked more about maritime themes.

It's pronounced 'boy' as in Elder's post about small boys swimming around waiting for little boats to go round them lol!

What I find fascinating about American English is that such a big country with so many different 'original' languages brought in by immigrants managed to codify it's English and pronounciations allowing for regional dialects but you can all understand each other.
I know Spanish is spoken a great deal in America too but I'd be interested to know if American Spanish has taken the same turns away from the Spanish commonly spoken in modern Spain today as English has?
That may be a question too about Canadian French, is it the same as the French spoken in France? I realise that with both the Spanish and the French there may be differences in accents but are there differences in words too?

 

[elder999]

.
I know Spanish is spoken a great deal in America too but I'd be interested to know if American Spanish has taken the same turns away from the Spanish commonly spoken in modern Spain today as English has?

Enough to ask "which Spanish do you mean?" :lol:

Just here in New Mexico there are several dialects and variants that date back to the late 16th century, to the point where a native Spanish speaker from Espanola or Hernandez can laugh at the way people from Chimayo and Penasco speak it.

And no one from hear can understand Puerto Ricans or Cubans worth a damn, except for me, because I grew up in New York-my Spanish may have come from school, but most of the people I first conversed in it with were Puerto Ricans.

And when I go south of the border, the further south I go the more I have to adjust my Spanish, until I wind up sounding like someone who paid a lot of attention in a crash-course.

 

[mook jong man]

Its pronounced boy , and while we are at it how did aluminium become aluminum ?
You don't say uranum for uranium or condominum for condominium etc so why is it different ?

I think they might pronounce it as Eye-rack because they also pronounce anti and semi as in ant-eye and sem-eye
Where as in Australia we would pronounce semi as semmy or anti as antee .

Its very interesting to see these differences in the way English is spoken and the different accents.

I remember when my wife and I had come back from Japan after being there a month and I had not heard another Australian voice except my own all the time I was there.

When we got to Sydney airport I heard an Australian customs officer talking , the first Aussie voice I had heard for a while and his voice just cut straight through me above any other noise.

His accent just sounded so harsh and rough , even though it was just a normal Aussie accent.
I thought my God is that what we sound like to other people around the world .

 

[theletch1]

That languages are going to change over both time and distance shouldn't really come as any surprise at all. If it didn't we'd all still be grunting and using whatever language our ancestors used. Change can be good for languages... especially as they are forced to keep up with an ever changing world where the language/words must keep up with the speed of that change. I've always been fascinated at the similarities of languages from region to region much more so than the differences.

The OP, though, I think was attempting to get opinions on what others thought regarding a long standing rule being dropped from a very common language. If the "I before E" rule is to be dropped does that mean that either variation of spelling for words that should follow that rule will be accepted? Does it mean that kids simply can't grasp the rule? Does it mean that kids are simply too lazy to worry with the rule? What, really, is the implication of dropping a linguistic rule like that and what does it portend for the language as a whole?

 

[Tez3]

Its pronounced boy , and while we are at it how did aluminium become aluminum ?
You don't say uranum for uranium or condominum for condominium etc so why is it different ?

I think they might pronounce it as Eye-rack because they also pronounce anti and semi as in ant-eye and sem-eye
Where as in Australia we would pronounce semi as semmy or anti as antee .

Its very interesting to see these differences in the way English is spoken and the different accents.

I remember when my wife and I had come back from Japan after being there a month and I had not heard another Australian voice except my own all the time I was there.

When we got to Sydney airport I heard an Australian customs officer talking , the first Aussie voice I had heard for a while and his voice just cut straight through me above any other noise.

His accent just sounded so harsh and rough , even though it was just a normal Aussie accent.
I thought my God is that what we sound like to other people around the world .

Australians always sound as if they are asking questions, it's the rise at the end of the sentence. The Welsh do it too, there may be a connection? Some peoples voices just sound rough whatever their accent!
Country people I think always talk gentler than city people.

What annoys me here is stupid spelling, such as using z for s in the plural ie boyz for boys. it seems to be done mostly by the media to show how 'cool' they are but everyone knowz they aren't lol!

 

[elder999]

The OP, though, I think was attempting to get opinions on what others thought regarding a long standing rule being dropped from a very common language. If the "I before E" rule is to be dropped does that mean that either variation of spelling for words that should follow that rule will be accepted? Does it mean that kids simply can't grasp the rule? Does it mean that kids are simply too lazy to worry with the rule? What, really, is the implication of dropping a linguistic rule like that and what does it portend for the language as a whole?

Not really-it was a good rule of thumb, but I can see dropping it, as there are so many exceptions.There are words like sufficient and proficient where the "i" comes before the "e" in spite occuring "after 'c'," and there are words where the "e" comes before the "i" even though they don't occur "after 'c'" , like all the words in that absurd sentence I posted-that one comes courtesy of Mr. Robert Hawkins, btw, my 9th grade English composition teacher.

Bottom line-it was always a pretty dumb rule, and they're right not to teach it. It's an okay guideline, I suppose, but the heinous potential for misspellings has to have had some people positively shrieking over the years-I'm sure that the various educational institutions were positively beseiged with letters condemning the rule.

English is such a weird language! :lol: