Boy Scouts to vote on lifting its ban on gay youths

[Bob Hubbard]

The Boy Scouts of America is welcome to remain an organization of intolerance. The US Supreme Court said so.

What would be nice is if that same special treatment was granted to all special groups. Allow any group to exclude anyone for any reason. Want a guys only club? No problem. No icky gurls allowed in the "He Man Womin Haters Klub". Want a "Whites Only" or "Gingers Only", or whatever group? Ok. You got it. You get your exclusions, and the rest of us get to mock you for it.

But, since it's decided that the BSA gets special allowances to discriminate, lets remove all the tax payer subsidized perks from them, such as the $1 rentals for parks, and so forth. Let them pay the same rate any other -private- group pays. Treat the BSA equally, even when they won't treat others so.

Personally, I wouldn't want to be a member of any group that didn't want me, that spread disinformation about me, that thought ill of me. If I were gay or bi, I wouldn't want to be a Boy Scout today. There are better organizations that would welcome me, treat me as an equal, treat me as worthy, not a second class undesirable or damaged person.

When I was a Scout, no one cared about orientation. We swam, hiked, shot, camped, cooked and burnt things. We focused on honor, duty, and those things the Oath and handbook taught.

Someday, it will be that way again. But until then, let the organization do as it will. Just remove it's perks and give them to some organization that has Honor. The Baden-Powell Service Association (BPSA) for example.

Boy Scouts to vote on lifting its ban on gay youths

The Boy Scouts' national council is expected to vote Thursday on whether to end its outright ban on gay youths.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

 

[granfire]

well, I don't care much for the tone of the host.

Yes, the mind set is an interesting one.
What can I say, I bit my tongue at the monthly 'round table' meeting. It was my first time there, I figured I should take it easy before I step in it big time.

The consensus is that what guy does in his bed chamber with the missus is sacred to an extent (ow, my tongue)
but that the LSD, I mean LDS church is in favor of accepting all boys, under the assumption that at that age they don't really know what homosexuality is, so they can be positive role models to the boys and guide them toward 'good' decisions. (I think I need my tongue sewn back on...). Gay adults are not welcome still.

Now, I wanted to ask the leader guy: Does it define you, the things you do with the missus in your bed chamber? The answer would likely be no.
I know it's about morality....but gimme a break, morality is not dependent on who you bed.

Now, they had one of the guys in the round who sits in on the committee who dismisses people for conduct. One case, they found two young gents in the same sleeping bag, canoodeling. oops. But I agree, send them on their merry way, since that is NOT in the handbook, regardless of who or what you want to canoodle with. That should be done in the privacy of their bed chamber (but those are two different animals all together.).
I a pretty sure homosexual individuals know from an early age on if they are 'straight' or not. I know I had massive crushes when I was very little, not a one time for a chick! And there are kids, as young as 8 or 10, you just look at them (boys more than girls I think) and just don't see them becoming the macho man their parents might hope for!

It is the assumption that being gay is a lifestyle.
Scouting is a lifestyle, or joining the LDS church (I know I will be in trouble, because I just know I will call it the LSD church at one time....oh well, hell is waiting for me anyhow) but who makes your heart beat faster is not.

I don't agree with that policy.
But I am also not willing to throw the whole organization out because of this.

FWIW: the leaders in our troop prefer the don't ask don't tell method. They really do not think they are qualified to deal with this, and it should be up to the parents. One is military, the other a good ole boy from around here.

I just sometimes wonder what all the staunch anti gay policies would do when their kids tell them 'Hey dad, pray gay away camp didn't work'
I understand that there are instances of individuals being completely shunned by their families (yes, it's a choice to run against the stream like this... along with a dramatically increased risk of drug abuse and abusive relationships and suicide...)


But I think the host is a jerk.


And I don't think it is a bad thing to have the girls separate. gender segregation at this age is not a bad thing!

I also volunteer in the girl scouts. I am a bit at odds with their program, it has some very good points, and some where they are rather a bit wishy-washy....but the majority of girls do better when they are not in competition with the boys but can concentrate of bing themselves and allow themselves to be challenged. As it is, only 5% of girls go on to reach the 'Gold Award', their equivalent of Eagle. Plus they can if they so desire join the more involved coed programs, like Venture Scouting. But the majority of girls are not into the type of scouting the boys do.

 

[Steve]

While it may only be a matter of time, it is currently illegal to discriminate based upon gender, race, or religion. It is not illegal to discriminate based upon sexual orientation, weight or physical attractiveness.

The Scouts is a private institution doing their own thing. They should be accountable to the law, and should be given every "perk" they can get and no more. And, we can choose whether to be involved with them or not.

My impression is that the scouts are becoming less and less relevant.

 

[rlobrecht]

But, since it's decided that the BSA gets special allowances to discriminate, lets remove all the tax payer subsidized perks from them, such as the $1 rentals for parks, and so forth. Let them pay the same rate any other -private- group pays. Treat the BSA equally, even when they won't treat others so.

Texas state parks don't give any discounts for Boy Scout troops, and I don't believe National Parks give BSA any different discount that isn't available to other non-commercial groups.

 

[Steve]

Texas state parks don't give any discounts for Boy Scout troops, and I don't believe National Parks give BSA any different discount that isn't available to other non-commercial groups.

Are the scouts still considered non-profit? The GSA is, I believe, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how that is. The GSA cookie campaign is making some people very, very rich.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm not up on this are they trying to ban gay kids or gay leaders or both? My kids are not into scouts and I never was one so I don't pay much attention to them.

 

[Steve]

I'm not up on this are they trying to ban gay kids or gay leaders or both? My kids are not into scouts and I never was one so I don't pay much attention to them.

Both. They have in the past asked both kids and scout leaders to leave the organization.

 

[ballen0351]

Both. They have in the past asked both kids and scout leaders to leave the organization.

OK. Then If its a private club it should be allowed to set its own membership rules. But they shouldn't recieve any perks from the govt.

 

[granfire]

Are the scouts still considered non-profit? The GSA is, I believe, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how that is. The GSA cookie campaign is making some people very, very rich.

The boy scouts generally do not have their own 501c3 designation. They rely on the sponsor group, which are mostly churches (and we can debate how deserving they are of such an exempt status...)

and yeah, the cookie deal is a rip-off...my guestimation was that the troop doing the leg work only gets to keep 15%, if that much. industry standard for fundraisers is 25%, 50 is tops, the popcorn thing for BSA (which nobody really likes) was offering 70% a couple of years ago! Unheard of!.

And government places generally do not give the troops any perks.

And like really most youth groups these days, the competition is high. But I think that it is still one of the few programs that do not too much of the watering down of content. Heaven knows, most are about handing the kid the trophy for showing up!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Texas state parks don't give any discounts for Boy Scout troops, and I don't believe National Parks give BSA any different discount that isn't available to other non-commercial groups.

[h=3]Access to governmental resources[/h] See also: Forum (legal)
Historically, the BSA (and the Girl Scouts of the USA) has often been granted preferential access to governmental resources such as lands and facilities. In certain municipalities, the conditions under which the Boy Scouts of America can access public and nonpublic governmental resources have become controversial, sometimes resulting in litigation.
When a private organization such as the BSA receives access on terms more favorable than other private organizations, it is known as "special" or "preferential" access whereas "equal" access is access on the same terms. For example, state and local governments may lease property to nonprofit groups (such as the BSA) on terms that are preferential to or equal to the terms they offer to commercial groups, in other words they may give nonprofit groups either special or equal access. Special access includes access at a reduced fee (including no fee) or access to places off-limits to other groups. The categorization of access as "special" or "equal" is not always clear-cut.
Some cities, counties, and states have ordinances or policies that limit government support for organizations that practice some types of discrimination. When the BSA's membership policies are perceived as contrary to these laws, some government organizations have moved to change the terms under which the BSA is allowed to access its resources. Private individuals have filed lawsuits to prevent governmental entities from granting what they see as preferential access.[SUP][70][/SUP] The BSA on the other hand has sued governmental entities for denying what it sees as equal access.[SUP][64][/SUP]
In response to these changes and litigation, the federal government passed laws mandating that BSA units be given equal access to local and state-level governmental resources. The Boy Scouts of America Equal Access Act, enacted in 2002, requires public elementary and secondary schools that receive U.S. Department of Education funding to provide BSA groups equal access to school facilities.[SUP][71][/SUP] The Support Our Scouts Act of 2005 requires state and local governments that receive HUD funding to provide BSA groups equal access to governmental forums (lands, facilities, etc.). State and local governments still have flexibility regarding the provision of special access to the BSA.[SUP][72][/SUP]
[h=3]Litigation regarding access to governmental resources[/h] Litigation has challenged the granting of preferential or equal access of the Boy Scouts of America to governmental facilities and resources, but in the majority of cases mentioned, BSA's use of the facilities was sustained:

• A US District Court's ruling against the BSA on the favorable terms under which the City of San Diego leases public land to the local BSA Council was overturned by Ninth US Court appeals in 2012. The court stated: “There is no evidence the city’s purpose in leasing the subject properties to the Boy Scouts was to was to advance religion, and there is abundant evidence that its purpose was to provide facilities and services for youth activities,” wrote Judge William C. Canby Jr. . See Barnes-Wallace v. Boy Scouts of America.
• Philadelphia attempted to revoke the terms under which the City of Philadelphia leases public land to the BSA. The US District Court ruled June 2010 in favor of the Boy Scouts of America and that the city's selective actions against the council were actually designed to impinge BSA's First Amendment rights.[SUP][73][/SUP][SUP][74][/SUP] Under federal Civil Rights Law, the Cradle of Liberty Council is also entitled to collect its legal costs from the city's unlawful action. On March 21, 2012, the Federal judge formally ordered the city pay all of the Boy Scouts legal fees and denied the city's motion for an appeal. The Boy Scouts may also continue reside in the building rent free as they have done since they had paid for construction of the building in 1929.[SUP][75][/SUP] See Cradle of Liberty Council v. City of Philadelphia.
• In July 2003, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld a decision by a U.S. District Judge that excluded the BSA from an annual workplace charitable campaign run by the state of Connecticut because of the BSA's policy on homosexuals. In March 2004, the United States Supreme Court declined to review the case.[SUP][76][/SUP]
• In March 2006, the California Supreme Court ruled in Evans v. Berkeley that the City of Berkeley did not have to continue to provide free dock space to the Sea Scouts.[SUP][77][/SUP] In October 2006, the United States Supreme Court declined to review Evans v. Berkeley.[SUP][78][/SUP]
• In September 2006, the Oregon Supreme Court ruled that recruiting by BSA in public schools did not violate the state's nondiscrimination laws.[SUP][79][/SUP]
• The U.S. Army had given the BSA special access to a base, Fort A.P. Hill, for its national Scout jamboree and the U.S. Department of Defense spends approximately $2 million per year in taxpayer funds to assist the BSA in staging it. On April 4, 2007 the US Court of Appeals overturned a lower court ruling on the basis of a lack of standing to sue, thus allowing the 2010 and future Jamborees to go forward with continued DoD support (see Winkler v. Rumsfeld).[SUP][64][/SUP][SUP][80][/SUP] Starting in 2013, the Scout Jamborees have been moved off public land to the new BSA-owned The Summit Bechtel Family National Scout Reserve.

The The Summit Bechtel Family National Scout Reserve is expected to be the site of the 2013 Jamboree with 50,000+ scouts attending.
By an interesting twist, FEMA is also reportedly running a bio-terrorism drill in the area at the same time. If the tin-hat's are right, it's gonna be a gas.

 

[granfire]

LOL, what a gas.

 

[granfire]

Youth membership in the Boy Scouts of America is open to all youth who meet the specific membership requirements to join the Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, Sea Scout, and Venturing programs. Membership in any program of the Boy Scouts of America requires the youth member to (a) subscribe to and abide by the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, (b) subscribe to and abide by the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle (duty to God), and (c) demonstrate behavior that exemplifies the highest level of good conduct and respect for others and is consistent at all times with the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone.

just highlight to read it...I can't find the color. **Admin note: color corrected - jks9199

from my in-box. old people have to stay in the closet.

As a side note, the base was against the move. Go figure.

canoodeling is still a no go at camp. As it should be.

 

[ballen0351]

After an extensive discussion within the organization, the Boy Scouts of America’s approximately 1,400 volunteer voting members chose to adopt the membership policy resolution and remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone.

The final vote breakdown was 61.44 percent for the proposal, and 38.56 percent against. The change takes effect Jan. 1, 2014.

Voting results were tabulated and certified by TrueBallot, an independent, third-party voting firm.

 

[arnisador]

OK. Then If its a private club it should be allowed to set its own membership rules. But they shouldn't recieve any perks from the govt.

No perks, definitely.

 

[arnisador]

After an extensive discussion within the organization, the Boy Scouts of America’s approximately 1,400 volunteer voting members chose to adopt the membership policy resolution and remove the restriction denying membership to youth on the basis of sexual orientation alone.

The ban against homosexual scout leaders remains though, I believe.

 

[granfire]

The ban against homosexual scout leaders remains though, I believe.

yes, it remains. But that was clear even before the vote.

see my remarks above regarding this matter.
After all, 70% of troops are sponsored by the LSD, I mean LDS church. The other 30% are probably in the hands of the other denominations, safe a few run by Goodyear, etc.

 

[elder999]

It's about time. For the record, the Boy Scouts National are a registered NFP that receives federal funding, as well as one operating under Congressional Charter since 1916, the year the BSA started, as an organization "for all boys.". My Dad was a Scout, I was a Scout, and, for a short time, my son was a Scout. I say it's about goddam time.......

 

[granfire]

It's about time. For the record, the Boy Scouts National are a registered NFP that receives federal funding, as well as one operating under Congressional Charter since 1916, the year the BSA started, as an organization "for all boys.". My Dad was a Scout, I was a Scout, and, for a short time, my son was a Scout. I say it's about goddam time.......

It is. I just hope they can finish the job.

After all, those boys who will leave the closet come 1/1/2014 will eventually reach Eagle...what then? cool, you got Eagle, don't mind you being gay, but get the H out of here!