Boxing as a Martial Art

[Mephisto]

Ah okay, no worries. I wouldn't argue against the pair on that. My simplistic view does not fit then really!

I think boxing is just so commonly associated as a sport many people overlook the fact that it offers everything any other martial art has (specific technique aside). The same might be said for wrestling. We have some very solid fighting arts here in the west and often the mystique of eastern arts seems more appealing. Western Boxing has influenced many systems and it seems we may be starting to see a return to boxings less sportive roots with the emergence of dirty boxing systems, 52 blocks, and panantukan filipino boxing.

 

[KPM]

Thanks for the great replies guys! I brought up this exact same discussion over at the Martial Arts Planet boxing subforum and the majority of people responding acted like I was stupid for even suggesting it! I won't be going back there!

I agree that Boxing is as much a "martial art" as Tai Chi or Aikido and maybe more so. I also agree with Mephisto that we are seeing a re-emergence of western Boxing in a dedicated self-defense scenario in things like Panantukan and 52 Blocks. Back in the "old days" Boxing was known as the "science of self-defense" and boxing gyms were as common as McDojo TKD schools are today. Some of the old boxing manuals like the one by Robert Fitzsimmons even had a self-defense applications chapter with techniques demonstrated in street clothes.

Now one could make a good argument that a modern Boxer with good control of distance and timing, good footwork, and good punching skills doesn't need anything else to take care of himself a self-defense scenario. But I think there are things that can enhance those skills and make them even better....ala Mark Hatmaker's approach as was suggested earlier. And we all strive to be better, don't we? ;-)

I also suggested on that other thread that a simple adaptation for Boxing in self-defense will involve changing the punching mechanics a bit to allow for striking without gloves and handwraps in order to avoid injuries. Maybe even striking with the palm heel instead of a fist. You would think I had defamed a golden rule or something by some of the responses there! Someone even went so far to say that if you were striking with an open hand instead of fist it couldn't be called "Boxing" anymore!

Another very simple adaptation of modern Boxing used in self-defense is to shorten the arc of the hook and turn it into an elbow strike. This happens by accident or design in the ring all the time. On the street in may be the difference between an unconscious attacker and a broken hand.

But if you don't train things like this pretty regularly, you won't be prepared to do them on the street. Hence my question about training as a martial art, above and beyond training for sportive applications. But some of the guys on that other thread didn't even get what I meant by that. There is a different mindset involved between a martial art and sport. I think this may be a more important distinction even that the techniques used.

 

[cloud dancing]

Danny-how did you hear about Mandarigma Sikharan.I met one of 5 red belts when in Philipines.decades ago.he was one of only ones left.3 were hunted down and Killed by PC's.went rogue and turned into Paid Killers. Can't even remember his name>But he''d won an SEAin title for karate also.was awesone fighter.Suprised when anyone mentions Mandarigma Skiharan.His/the master trained them hard old school.One exercise held the leg up hour or hours to strengthen kicks.then oither leg up.He worked with PI PC's Was once sent out /Sent to hunt down 2 PC's who had supplied weapons to terrorists in his area.Kalibo Aklhan in Panay Island.My now EX-Wife was such a btch would not allow me to study with him.Would ahve been too positive and experience for me.She was set on killing me herself and did not want him to interfere. One of life's most imp decisions =choosing one's partner. Now with Thai girl{tiger}who loves to fight but refuses to train with me in tai-chi.We'll see what 2015 brings to this relationship. Light shines and darkness is gone.Lighthouse in mtns.Thailand

 

[cloud dancing]

Just remembered his name-Jerry Arroyo.Mandarigma Sikharan Red belt. If anyone can find old SEAsian games books-his name is there for lightweight chamionship. funny how memory kicks in.
Question=why youse guys keep saying TAI-CHI IS NOT FOR FIGHTING??? Worked for me several times.and for others as well.
Just same as with all arts.Work on the basics.Chen ssu chen.rowing, standing.forms until they change into new forms. It's all about practise and I look to all of you,when ever on this forum- for the inspiration to go beyond my pains and excuses. Train and more. Any ideas how to go beyond this shaking I get after I explode and attack? always ahve to go where others will not see how my entire body, especially my hands keep shaking from the anger. Some ways, I kinda like that it happens Makes me feel human. Even one small candle will drive away the darkness.Lighthouse in mtns of Chiangrai,Thailand,

 

[drop bear]

Just remembered his name-Jerry Arroyo.Mandarigma Sikharan Red belt. If anyone can find old SEAsian games books-his name is there for lightweight chamionship. funny how memory kicks in.
Question=why youse guys keep saying TAI-CHI IS NOT FOR FIGHTING??? Worked for me several times.and for others as well.
Just same as with all arts.Work on the basics.Chen ssu chen.rowing, standing.forms until they change into new forms. It's all about practise and I look to all of you,when ever on this forum- for the inspiration to go beyond my pains and excuses. Train and more. Any ideas how to go beyond this shaking I get after I explode and attack? always ahve to go where others will not see how my entire body, especially my hands keep shaking from the anger. Some ways, I kinda like that it happens Makes me feel human. Even one small candle will drive away the darkness.Lighthouse in mtns of Chiangrai,Thailand,

sweet fizzy drinks help. Otherwise the more you are concerned about the shaking after. The worse it is.

it is not something you necessarily want to get rid of. As it helps you fight a bit.

 

[Danny T]

Danny-how did you hear about Mandarigma Sikharan.I met one of 5 red belts when in Philipines.decades ago.he was one of only ones left.3 were hunted down and Killed by PC's.went rogue and turned into Paid Killers. Can't even remember his name>But he''d won an SEAin title for karate also.was awesone fighter.Suprised when anyone mentions Mandarigma Skiharan.

I also train and instruct Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. When Pekiti was being developed as the Tortal family system the Tortal brothers researched & trained Skiharan. Today it has a strong influence in PTK.

 

[Mephisto]

Thanks for the great replies guys! I brought up this exact same discussion over at the Martial Arts Planet boxing subforum and the majority of people responding acted like I was stupid for even suggesting it! I won't be going back there!

I agree that Boxing is as much a "martial art" as Tai Chi or Aikido and maybe more so. I also agree with Mephisto that we are seeing a re-emergence of western Boxing in a dedicated self-defense scenario in things like Panantukan and 52 Blocks. Back in the "old days" Boxing was known as the "science of self-defense" and boxing gyms were as common as McDojo TKD schools are today. Some of the old boxing manuals like the one by Robert Fitzsimmons even had a self-defense applications chapter with techniques demonstrated in street clothes.

Now one could make a good argument that a modern Boxer with good control of distance and timing, good footwork, and good punching skills doesn't need anything else to take care of himself a self-defense scenario. But I think there are things that can enhance those skills and make them even better....ala Mark Hatmaker's approach as was suggested earlier. And we all strive to be better, don't we? ;-)

I also suggested on that other thread that a simple adaptation for Boxing in self-defense will involve changing the punching mechanics a bit to allow for striking without gloves and handwraps in order to avoid injuries. Maybe even striking with the palm heel instead of a fist. You would think I had defamed a golden rule or something by some of the responses there! Someone even went so far to say that if you were striking with an open hand instead of fist it couldn't be called "Boxing" anymore!

Another very simple adaptation of modern Boxing used in self-defense is to shorten the arc of the hook and turn it into an elbow strike. This happens by accident or design in the ring all the time. On the street in may be the difference between an unconscious attacker and a broken hand.

But if you don't train things like this pretty regularly, you won't be prepared to do them on the street. Hence my question about training as a martial art, above and beyond training for sportive applications. But some of the guys on that other thread didn't even get what I meant by that. There is a different mindset involved between a martial art and sport. I think this may be a more important distinction even that the techniques used.

I'm sorry guys but I'm not a fan of MAP forum. They protect ninjas from any questions or criticism and their discussions suffer because of it. There's a lot of Japan-o-philes there who read all the martial ats pop culture propaganda and never look at it with an objective eye or dig deeper. I don't know why but people there often repeat the same old hat as if it was a proven fact rather than consider another view.

Just remembered his name-Jerry Arroyo.Mandarigma Sikharan Red belt. If anyone can find old SEAsian games books-his name is there for lightweight chamionship. funny how memory kicks in.
Question=why youse guys keep saying TAI-CHI IS NOT FOR FIGHTING??? Worked for me several times.and for others as well.
Just same as with all arts.Work on the basics.Chen ssu chen.rowing, standing.forms until they change into new forms. It's all about practise and I look to all of you,when ever on this forum- for the inspiration to go beyond my pains and excuses. Train and more. Any ideas how to go beyond this shaking I get after I explode and attack? always ahve to go where others will not see how my entire body, especially my hands keep shaking from the anger. Some ways, I kinda like that it happens Makes me feel human. Even one small candle will drive away the darkness.Lighthouse in mtns of Chiangrai,Thailand,

I mentioned that as tai chi is most commonly practiced the primary goal is something other than martial. There's an emphasis on health, vitality, meditation, that is prioritized over fighting ability. There's nothing wrong with that. I've talked to some guys recovering from injury and tai chi has worked wonders for them. I'm aware there are more combat focused tai chi schools in existence but my understanding and experience is that they are much less common.

 

[tshadowchaser]

just a question folk are you trying to spell Sikaran if so are the spellings above native to your country?
If you look up Mandarigma Sikharan on Google you end up with Sikaran sites
ok off topic I know

 

[cloud dancing]

Thank you,Drop Bear & Danny T.If I do return to USA-I'll hope to visit you in Louisiana.Shadow-Mandarigma Sikaran May ahve been Jerry's name for the School or just used in Philipines.Past I have positive memories and regrets/future-hopes.
Lighthouse in mtns.Chiangrai,Thailand

 

[Shajikfer]

Hi Guys!

Does anyone here train their Boxing as a martial art? If so, what kind of things do you work on apart from the usual sport-related training?

For ring fighting a lot of boxing techniques are excellent to implement in mma style fighting. But I feel like I literally just said the blue sky is blue.

I am not sure how one would consider boxing not a martial art.

 

[Transk53]

I am not sure how one would consider boxing not a martial art.

Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more

 

[Andrew Green]

Hi Guys!

Does anyone here train their Boxing as a martial art? If so, what kind of things do you work on apart from the usual sport-related training?

Boxing is a martial art?

I mean you can say it's all sport, but then so is something like Kendo, you don't have a self-defence portion of training in Kendo but most would consider it a martial art.

It's also older then most eastern martial arts. The Queensbury rules have been around 125+ years. Not many eastern arts can claim that much of a history without a drastic change of approach... which boxing can to as it existed before those rules.

Really I think the only claim that you can make against boxing that won't lead to taking a ton of other martial arts off the list of martial arts is that it didn't come from Asia, and that's kind of a silly criteria.

 

[Andrew Green]

Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more

As oppose to Muay Thai? Sanshou? Knock-down rules of Kyokushin? Lei Tai matches?

Or is your argument it's not a martial art because it is effective at what it does, I'm missing your point completely here. And if you don't think there is finesse in it you are quite wrong and should spend some time in a gym. Or watch some of the great boxers work. I'm not sure how you can watch a high level boxer fight and not see finesse. Even guys like Tyson with all that raw power, when he was in his prime his movement and setups where art.

 

[Transk53]

As oppose to Muay Thai? Sanshou? Knock-down rules of Kyokushin? Lei Tai matches?

Or is your argument it's not a martial art because it is effective at what it does, I'm missing your point completely here. And if you don't think there is finesse in it you are quite wrong and should spend some time in a gym. Or watch some of the great boxers work. I'm not sure how you can watch a high level boxer fight and not see finesse. Even guys like Tyson with all that raw power, when he was in his prime his movement and setups where art.

Yeah you missed the point. No disrespect, but you would not understand either, all though you did point to the path I believe you mistake art for intrinsic ability. I could jump on the boxing insult, but I won't. You are entitled to you're 15 minutes

 

[drop bear]

Yeah you missed the point. No disrespect, but you would not understand either, all though you did point to the path I believe you mistake art for intrinsic ability. I could jump on the boxing insult, but I won't. You are entitled to you're 15 minutes

It can be art and still violent.

One of the factors that makes boxing an art is that good boxers beat bad ones. It means there is something within the boxing not just the person.

 

[Transk53]

It can be art and still violent.

One of the factors that makes boxing an art is that good boxers beat bad ones. It means there is something within the boxing not just the person.

I guess it is just my own interpretation then. Have trouble conveying myself a lot of the time, so maybe I did not word it right. Guess that is the fun in learning stuff even if technically wrong.

 

[Shajikfer]

Because proper boxing is something completely different. Shocking and brutal violence wrought with no finesse other than the technique involved. In that I do not mean some caveman like attitude, just in the pure reality of the sweet science. Overall boxing is not a martial art, just a very effective means of putting someone down hard. Yeah of course though, if you can box you can do much more

I don't know. From my understanding of Martial Arts history, the earliest forms of recorded martial arts are boxing and wrestling, with the oldest portions depicted at the tomb of Beni Hasan. In my view, boxing is technically the oldest form of martial arts, though it has changed over the millenia.

Minoan Sport - HistoryWiz Ancient History

minoan boxing - Google Search


Sorry for long links, can't figure out how to post an image.

 

[Transk53]

Yes in antiquity they were there also. As a martial art, how far does one go through recorded history?

 

[Shajikfer]

Yes in antiquity they were there also. As a martial art, how far does one go through recorded history?

As far back as combat was practiced in my eyes.

 

[Transk53]

As far back as combat was practiced in my eyes.

Interesting stuff really.