Bowing: eyes up or down?

[Rough Rider]

I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.

I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing. One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful. The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow. Thoughts?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.

I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing. One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful. The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow. Thoughts?

When I took karate more than 30 years ago. I was taught to bow with eyes up, always looking at the opponent just in case the opponent is not as "honorable as me."

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.

I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing. One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful. The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow. Thoughts?

From what I have been told by my instructor (who is himself of Japanese and American origin and was born in Japan), bowing in martial arts is no different from bowing to in general. Nothing to do with fighting or karate in general terms, it just happens that many karate students not in cultures that bow come in contact with the concept through martial arts study.

The eyes are down. Typically one looks at the floor about 3/4 of the way to the person to whom they are bowing.

When the bow is between a student and teacher, the student bows more deeply and holds the bow until the teacher lifts up from the bowing position.

The Japanese word used in our dojo is 'rei', which indicates one should bow; I am told it means 'respect'. Karate, I have been taught, begins and ends with respect.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From what I have been told by my instructor (who is himself of Japanese and American origin and was born in Japan), bowing in martial arts is no different from bowing to in general. Nothing to do with fighting or karate in general terms, it just happens that many karate students not in cultures that bow come in contact with the concept through martial arts study.

The eyes are down. Typically one looks at the floor about 3/4 of the way to the person to whom they are bowing.

When the bow is between a student and teacher, the student bows more deeply and holds the bow until the teacher lifts up from the bowing position.

The Japanese word used in our dojo is 'rei', which indicates one should bow; I am told it means 'respect'. Karate, I have been taught, begins and ends with respect.

I heard of this for bowing outside of martial arts but it's the first time I've heard it applying to martial arts. I guess I learned something new.

 

[kuniggety]

To note: the Japanese do not typically look each other in the eyes as we do in our Western culture. It is seen to be direct and can be rude or confrontational. This is not just in Japan though. As a Westen man, I've made many Asian women blush by my looking at them directly in the eyes when talking to them. It's just a cultural difference. If you're looking at a person while bowing, it's not the Japanese way and simply is not the respectful way to bow.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I went back and took a look at some sparring competitions from inside of Japan. Some bowed as your described, some bowed as I described, and some didn't bow at all. It will be interesting to see what other say.

 

[drop bear]

Eyes up cos James bond.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Eyes up cos James bond.

 

[Human Makiwara]

Sensei tells us it's tradition for you to bow to teachers with eyes to the floor. Bow to partners or opponents with eyes up. During bunkai drills we must bow both ways. Kumite also requires both bows as well.

In reality everyone does it different. Whatever your school prefers is what should be done.

It seems to show the most respect you keep eyes down.

 

[Balrog]

I study Taekwondo, but I'm posting this on the general board to get perspective from various arts.

I've heard two schools of thought on where to look when bowing. One says to look up, because failing to look someone in the eye is disrespectful. The other says look down, because this shows that you trust your opponent not to attack during the bow. Thoughts?

Eyes down, look at your toes.

That is the bow used in the family. And your school is your family. Looking at someone while bowing is disrespectful, a "You are my honored enemy and I don't trust you enough to take my eyes off you" sort of thing.

 

[seasoned]

Eyes down = respect.
Eyes up = cautious respect

 

[geezer]

If you are really ambivalent you can always bow with one eye up and the other down.

In the arts I practice (not Japanese), we bow with our eyes on our opponent. Eyes down would indeed be more deferential.

 

[Drose427]

Our general rule:

General Bowing: Eyes Down

Bowing before any kind of sparring: Eyes Up

 

[Danny T]

Different cultures, different bows. In the Chinese arts I practice when bowing we bow eyes up. In the FMA I practice we kneel on the right knee with eyes up. In the Thai art we 'wai' eyes up unless the person to whom the wai is for is of high importance to you or is of the Royal family then the wai is performed eyes averted downward.

 

[Koshiki]

Wow. I was actually thinking about this today, and was considering posting a thread on here out of curiosity. In New England at least, there seems to be no consensus even among karate schools, let alone Japanese versus Korean versus Filipino versus Chinese. Many schools do the eyes up thing, some even speculating that eye contact demonstrates respect. And it does, in a more general context. In the USA.

My personal take, as a sweeping generalization of the interpretation of area schools, is that bowing is a symbol of respect, which you should strive to hold for everyone and treat everyone with, including your opponents and enemies, but that looking down is a symbol of trust, which can be separate from respect, and should be reserved for those that you are relatively sure are not about to wing you one. Personally, I figure anyone I'm bowing to is someone I've already decided is not imminently about to try to injure me.

Also, from what I recall of Elementary School mandatory Japanese class (aside from Kobayashi Sensei being an excellent teacher) was that the eyes should always look at your toes when bowing.

In many ways I think that, again in New England, many people seem to feel and convey more respect with a handshake or glove tap before sparring, than with a bow. It's just not part of our culture outside of our martial arts schools, and I think in many cases is more something associated specifically with whatever martial art, rather than with mutual respect, whereas the handshake is something which everyone grows up utilizing as a symbol of good will, good faith, respect, and a demonstration of character.

Bowing, in western culture, generally has fewer connotations related to mutual respect and humility, and more which are tied to power disparities, however historically or culturally inaccurate that may be. I know newer students and outside viewers often seem to assume the bowing is intended to demonstrate subordinance to and reverence for the instructor. Regardless of how incorrect this view may be, it's a hard lump to jam down many a Mainer's throat...

For my own part, I find more mutual respect from a grin and a fist bump. Again, none of this has any significance outside of the culture it's being practiced in. The martial art and accompanying social formalities may stem from Japan/Korea/China/Wherever else, but if it's being practiced in a school in Toronto, the culture of that school is probably the most relevant. That said, I remember a Japanese Karate team from Amori coming to visit years ago, and very politely correcting many of the local schools on various matters of butchered culture and pronunciation....

This may be somewhat the viewpoint of someone shaped by practicing a US take on a poorly understood Korean derivative of a somewhat better understood Japanese derivative of an Okinawan art with roots in China. Everything has been so twisted, mixed, bungled and bastardized at this point, that I suppose I lack a certain reverence for tradition. I'm not complaining about the warts, mind you. I just try to remain aware of them.

Point being, there's certainly a great deal to be said for studying the root culture of an art, learning the meanings and significance of traditions, etc, but when, say, I visit a Shaolin Kempo Karate school and they start telling me about the long history of their Pinan Forms, and discuss the long standing pre-class belt tying rules of who kneels and stands and when, I just go with it. When I go to a TKD school and they tell me how and when to bow and to who and why, and the pre-class formalities are in a bizarre mixture of Japanese and Korean, again, I just go with it. the words and formalities and mythologies may be inaccurate and with significance far from the original, but they have a meaning and significance in the culture of that specific school.

Just like I wouldn't bow to someone knocking on my door, just like I wouldn't shake the hand of a young Orthodox Jewish woman on meeting her, just like I wouldn't walk into someone's school, walk to the front of the class and shake hands with the instructor in the middle of class. When you're with a group of people, it's polite to do whatever it is that group of people think is polite, even if it seems silly. Even if that's bowing with eye contact and grunting "Osu" in affirmation every few sentences.


Pointless 3AM ramble concluded.

 

[kuniggety]

I would just point out that my previous post is the "Japanese" point of view of bowing. I was in Thailand and, while watching a Muay Thai fight, watched a Japanese fighter win a fight. Instead of hugging his defeated opponent and offering a wai, he paraded around the arena. I thought it was flat out rude. Everyone has their own interpretations of what's acceptable. I find it funny though when you have Westerners adopting an Easten custom and then making excuses why they don't do it the same. Why bow in the first place then? It's not a Westen custom. In BJJ we tend to fist bump which is a Western thing even though it has Japaness origins. It makes sense... It's a Brazilian art now. I've rolled with Japanese BJJ dudes who will bow to me and I respectfully bow back because that's their cultural custom but it's not part of the art. Maybe it's because I've spent half my adult life living in far Eastern Asia but sometimes Westeners make no damn sense to me in their assimilation of Asian culture.

 

[Tez3]

Saying bowing is not a Western custom is inaccurate, until relatively recently it was the custom for men to bow and women curtsy on meeting each other. Think of the Prussians etc with the heel clicking and the stiff bow of the head. Bowing is still used in country dancing, the stage, orchestras etc. It's used in countries with royalty. It's also used in Judaism.

 

[kuniggety]

But we don't anymore. It is quite gentlemanly to give a head nod but that is not the same as a bow. Bowing and curtsying are only used in the most formal of situations... Not daily life. Growing up in the US, there was never a single time that I bowed.

 

[Tez3]

But we don't anymore. It is quite gentlemanly to give a head nod but that is not the same as a bow. Bowing and curtsying are only used in the most formal of situations... Not daily life. Growing up in the US, there was never a single time that I bowed.

I just pointed out how many times a bow is used in modern life, actors, musicians, dancers etc even in school and amateur productions bow. I also said in countries with royalty as well as in Judaism. You can't say 'we don't bow anymore' when you mean you don't bow can you? Just because you don't think you do doesn't mean it's an obsolete custom. You also can't say you have never bowed and then that you bow in martial arts lol.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I was always taught to not take your eyes off your opponent even when bowing. Although you will not be doing any bowing in a self defense situation it is still a good habit to get into (keeping eyes on opponent that is).