Shogun said:
Right on!!!! That is definately a key point that many people over look! People can know all the submissions in the world, but if they can't maintain good position and stay on the person long enough, what good are the subs.??
Mike
Right on!!!! That is definately a key point that many people over look! People can know all the submissions in the world, but if they can't maintain good position and stay on the person long enough, what good are the subs.??
Mike
Yes, go for position--the submissions will follow!
I see things being less and less "pure" all the time (in terms on one's chosen art - BJJ in the case). Evolution is always a good idea. That is simply moving toward efficiency. For example it was said that a short drag isn't a traditional BJJ technique. Yet it works. It works to get you out of a bad position. So why doesn't it BECOME a traditional BJJ technique if it works and results in a reversal? (That's a rhetorical question folks).
I'll answer that! When you begin seeing BJJ guys DOING that short drag (as I have. Plus I use it as well), then it certainly HAS become a BJJ technique - traditional or not. Sure it comes from wrestling, but the wrestling will (eventually, considering how many wrestlers are now coming into the game) make jiu-jitsu a LOT better.
In the end of the day, it's ALL wrestling. Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys would do themselves a HUGE favor by coming OUT of the kimono for a bit and doing their jiu-jitsu NO-GI. I can hear SOME people gasp out loud at my sacrelige. It's the reliance on cloth that could actually be holding them back.
-John
I'll answer that! When you begin seeing BJJ guys DOING that short drag (as I have. Plus I use it as well), then it certainly HAS become a BJJ technique - traditional or not. Sure it comes from wrestling, but the wrestling will (eventually, considering how many wrestlers are now coming into the game) make jiu-jitsu a LOT better.
In the end of the day, it's ALL wrestling. Brazilian jiu-jitsu guys would do themselves a HUGE favor by coming OUT of the kimono for a bit and doing their jiu-jitsu NO-GI. I can hear SOME people gasp out loud at my sacrelige. It's the reliance on cloth that could actually be holding them back.
-John
Shogun
Master Black Belt
As a martial art that has a grandmaster, it is not BJJ until master Helio says it is.
BTW, BJJ was designed so a small guy could defend himself against a big guy. when was the last time you got into a naked street fight?
BTW, BJJ was designed so a small guy could defend himself against a big guy. when was the last time you got into a naked street fight?
I have mixed feelings on the gi/no-gi thing...as they say, if you can escape in the gi, you're in business.
Best training: Me in gi, partner not. I have to work harder to escape, and to hold him!
Best training: Me in gi, partner not. I have to work harder to escape, and to hold him!
Shogun
Master Black Belt
The gi gives the practitioners the ability to gain a solid base. kinda like you said. It also is more realistic, in that it simulates a coat, or shirt. No-gi is good, but I believe wearing a gi should be the primary method of teaching BJJ. Every REAL bjj school also teaches no Gi techniques.
It also dries out a no gi guy pretty good. Royce Gracie has invented a hundred moves to use if the other person isnt wearing a gi. underhooks, overhooks, chokes, and even armbars, and pass guards with your own gi. My instrcutor is good with them and has shown me a lot.
OP
NotQuiteDead
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- #27
IMO it'd be better to start without the gi and then later start using it. No-gi techniques can be used whether or not you're wearing a gi. If you start gi-grappling later then it'll be easier to hold on to them and there will be more gripping opportunities. Besides, you would probably learn to react faster when grappling with a slick opponent than you would if you started out in a gi.
Shogun
Master Black Belt
You cant learn the fine points of bjj by starting w/o a Gi. The gi develops a strong base. you learn to defend from every possible attack without it. once you are good with the gi, taking it off and grappling should seem very easy. There is a "combat grappling" type school in salt lake city, utah where the guys only do no gi. they often challenge Pedro Sauer's students who are trained about 70% in the gi. to this day they havent won a match. If you can become good with a gi on, the rest is like breathing.
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NotQuiteDead
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- #29
If your goal is to get good at gi grappling, then obviously training with a gi would be better. However, if you're interested in no-gi, then starting in a gi doesn't seem like it'd be worth it. You have to change the way you clinch, take people down, etc. and then learn how to deal with people just slipping out of holds.
OP
RSJ
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- #30
You know, BJJ and Wrestling are both good arts on their own. Put them together and you have an almost unbeatable art. It's a pick 'em game as far as one versus the other goes. Sure, BJJ is great on the ground but wrestlers can take them down and establish a good position. Then again, a BJJ guy can sweep and on his back, a pure wrestler is screwed more or less.
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NotQuiteDead
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- #31
I don't see why someone who spends a lot of time training to get off of his back against guys who train to put him there would be "screwed" if he was put on his back.
OP
RSJ
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- #32
Tell me this, do amatuer wrestler train in submission defense ? No, they do not. When on your back, you tend to be somewhat more susceptible to submissions as you are not able to move as freely.NotQuiteDead said:
Shogun
Master Black Belt
I dont think it is so much a wrestler being on their back, as trying to get back on top. wrestling has some very good techniques for reversing the bottom position, but most of them involve turning your back, which is rule #1 of things not to do against a BJJ person. Beofre I did BJJ, I was primarily a Japanese JJ guy. JJJ has some very good arm locks when someone is behind you, so I could usually escape when some one was on my back. I didnt really understand the importance of not giving your back until going to more BJJ classes and watching all the other guys getting choked.
OP
NotQuiteDead
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- #34
After going from submission wrestling to folkstyle wrestling and then back again, I think that the fact that I gave up my back a lot in wrestling was a good thing, because now I'm a lot better at getting people off of my back.
Anyways, I was just responding to the post about wrestlers being screwed when they're on their backs.
Folkstyle wrestling--yeah, there are different types of wrestling, which can make a difference in the experience one gets.
Shogun
Master Black Belt
we should have made it clear before. Wrestling doesnt always = Scholastic wrestling. Most of my experience comes from greco roman and pre-WWE Pro wrestling. a lot of real submissions. Lou thesz type stuff.
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RSJ
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- #37
Catch wrestling, you mean ? Sure, scholastic wrestling and pro wrestling are just subcatagories of catch.
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NotQuiteDead
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- #38
Shogun, how does catch differ from bjj (aside from not using a gi)? I think I read something before about catch wrestlers not being so concerned with getting good position before getting sub.
Shogun
Master Black Belt
well, thats kinda it. submissions are geared around positioning. instead of "getting to knee on belly before doing the armbar", its do the armbar or variation where you are at. the submisions are different feeling too. the guillotine is more of a neck crank than a choke. the americana is more of a small muscle pull than a large muscle pull (as in bjj). the submissions are usually quicker acting, though cause less damage in fully applied. most have a burning feeling rather than a stretching feeling.
however, both martial arts are very effective in their own rights, if used properly.
however, both martial arts are very effective in their own rights, if used properly.
Yeah pretty much. its all wrestling. but it all has something different to offer.
Hmmm, the submissions are usually quicker acting, but cause less damage. I find this interesting and would be curious to hear more examples. Choking someone out puts them out, and breaking an arm breaks an arm...those end the fight. But what if something short of that is done, the person cries "Uncle!" and is let up, and then decides to continue the fight? Or do you not mean that much less damaging...I'm not so familiar with wrestling other than the high school wrestling I did.Shogun said:
