Benefits without intent?

[SFC JeffJ]

Looking for Tai Chi instruction, I've mostly found instructors that have no knowledge, nor the desire to learn, about the martial application of Tai Chi. That got me thinking.

Would studying Tai Chi without the combative intent have all the health and wellness benefits as learning with the martial aspects intact?

Jeff

 

[Drac]

Would studying Tai Chi without the combative intent have all the health and wellness benefits as learning with the martial aspects intact?

An excellent questions..I will await the answers with you..

 

[Shrewsbury]

Unfortunatly many do not know the combat side of any internal arts. Taichi has been over taken by a health movement, which is great for health, but bad for tai chi.

I have met hundreds of instructors who know little about how to use tai chi in combat, among those that do, I find that just a very small percent really know how to apply the art. many use the art externally, claiming that with softness or slowness they are internal, bad news, this is not so.

The internal aspects of combat are being lost and have been being lost for decades and it won't be long till they are all but gone, I really hope to change this in what ever way I can, I owe the martial arts much, it has given me alot over the last few decades and will return what I can.

Now I guess I should get back to your question.

Would studying Tai Chi without the combative intent have all the health and wellness benefits as learning with the martial aspects intact?

No, though it would still promote health because of the physical and mental movements, it will lose the real health values on internal arts.
the relaxation, whole but sperate body movement, and quiet mind can only be reached through practice of application in conjunction with solo practice and a real good teacher to guide you.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unfortunatly many do not know the combat side of any internal arts. Taichi has been over taken by a health movement, which is great for health, but bad for tai chi.

I have met hundreds of instructors who know little about how to use tai chi in combat, among those that do, I find that just a very small percent really know how to apply the art. many use the art externally, claiming that with softness or slowness they are internal, bad news, this is not so.

The internal aspects of combat are being lost and have been being lost for decades and it won't be long till they are all but gone, I really hope to change this in what ever way I can, I owe the martial arts much, it has given me alot over the last few decades and will return what I can.

Now I guess I should get back to your question.



No, though it would still promote health because of the physical and mental movements, it will lose the real health values on internal arts.
the relaxation, whole but sperate body movement, and quiet mind can only be reached through practice of application in conjunction with solo practice and a real good teacher to guide you.

I cannot tell how much I agree ALL of this.

Couldn’t have said it better myself, actually I probably would have started ranting again to be honest, so it’s a good thing that Shrewsbury answered before me.

What styles have you been checking?

 

[7starmantis]

I dont think I can agree completely with Shrewsbury. I agree that the martial aspects of taiji are all but gone and are fading even faster. However I can't say that practicing Tai Chi without the martial intent voids its health benefits. There are many many benefits of Tai Chi and they do not all rely on martial intent. The physical benefits of Tai Chi are being used in western medicine without the martial intent. I am most certianly not a proponent of tai chi without the martial aspects, but I can see beyond the internal or intent. Physical Therapist are starting to use Tai Chi for rehabilitation and it works wonders. Is it lacking to study it without martial intent, yes. We do not teach it without the martial intent, but there are many, many people who have received great physical health benefits from practicing tai chi who are simply not interested in the martial application. Elderly for an example gain great benefits from the practice and are truly unable or uninterested in practicing martial applications. So are some of the benefits lost without the application, of course. In fact ALOT is lost, but not all.

So, to your question, No, studying without the martial intent would not have ALL the health benefits. However it would still have great health benefits.

JMHO,
7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Rats!! The whole idea behind this was to get another XS rant going!!

But seriously, thanks for the thoughts on this matter. It won't be too much longer before I start up Tai Chi, and from what I've seen, the instructor I"m going too seems like the real deal. I hope I'll be able to keep that opinion.

Jeff

 

[Elayna]

I agree with 7.

I have seen Tai Chi work wonders. I think just because it puts a person in the right mindset to help their body heal itself. I cant say for sure if its Tai Chi, or if its the person.
And I cant say if not having martial intent helps or not. But all I know is from what I have seen, those who use Tai Chi, without martial intent do get a huge health benefit. Maybe not as much as if they knew everything about the art and how to really practice it, but still benefit none the less.

I also think, that we need something like Tai chi out there for those who cant do arts like Judo, or Aikido or things like that. Elderly, the young, and those who are not physically able, Tai Chi is just the thing.

Anyways...Just my 2 cents.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also think, that we need something like Tai chi out there for those who cant do arts like Judo, or Aikido or things like that. Elderly, the young, and those who are not physically able, Tai Chi is just the thing.

You obviously never saw me do push hands with my last Sifu

 

[Xue Sheng]

I dont think I can agree completely with Shrewsbury. I agree that the martial aspects of taiji are all but gone and are fading even faster. However I can't say that practicing Tai Chi without the martial intent voids its health benefits. There are many many benefits of Tai Chi and they do not all rely on martial intent. The physical benefits of Tai Chi are being used in western medicine without the martial intent. I am most certianly not a proponent of tai chi without the martial aspects, but I can see beyond the internal or intent. Physical Therapist are starting to use Tai Chi for rehabilitation and it works wonders. Is it lacking to study it without martial intent, yes. We do not teach it without the martial intent, but there are many, many people who have received great physical health benefits from practicing tai chi who are simply not interested in the martial application. Elderly for an example gain great benefits from the practice and are truly unable or uninterested in practicing martial applications. So are some of the benefits lost without the application, of course. In fact ALOT is lost, but not all.

So, to your question, No, studying without the martial intent would not have ALL the health benefits. However it would still have great health benefits.

JMHO,
7sm

Allow me to clarify; I was in RANT mode before and trying to not rant.

Tai Chi, particularly Yang style, is fading fast as a martial art. And this is the type of thing that gets me a rantin' :soapbox:

As to the health benefits.

Yes there are health benefits to Tai chi without the martial arts. There are health benefits to Tai Chi forms without the internal work too.

But these benefits are lessened by the removal of the internal work and martial side.

 

[Elayna]

I am definatly going to have to do some reasearch into Tai Chi....
I have to honestly say, that until like 6 or 7 months ago, I never knew Tai Chi was a martial Arts. LOL...I know Im a ditz.

So anyways...I wont say anymore on the subject till i get my butt online and in the book stores and do some major research. LOL.

But I do have to say...That if it works for those people that is works for I think its great. But....I also think the option should be given to include and know about the martial intent or not.
Kinda like different levels for different people that are ready for it you know. Because I would hate to see something good like Tai Chi not be used because it becomes strictly martial arts you know.
But anyways....Just a thought.

To Google....LOL.

 

[Shrewsbury]

Mr 7 perhaps we are mis understanding eachother


you stated

So, to your question, No, studying without the martial intent would not have ALL the health benefits. However it would still have great health benefits.

I stated

No, though it would still promote health because of the physical and mental movements, it will lose the real health values on internal arts.

so I am unsure why you disagree with me, we seem to be stating the same thing.

Perhaps I am not writing clearly (which wouldn't surprise me) what I was trying to say is that with out learning the true combat methods one will not learn the real "internal" workings of the art. the use of whole body comes to a new and different level when one begins to learn to apply the moves to another person, the mechanics are honed much deeper.

not to start a controversy but you could take just about any form, whether gung fu, karate or what ever, slow it down, relax the body and mind and begin to listen to your body and it will generate great health results just like tai chi in a non combative form does, and I promote this, I promote anything that promotes health and longevity.

when one learn the methods of using internals in combat it greatly improves these skills and the understanding of your own body at a whole other level.

 

[East Winds]

O.K. Here I go puting the cat amongst the pigeons. Taiji IS a martial art. If you practise it without the martial aspect, you are not practising Taiji!! You may be practising something that looks like taiji, but it won't be. It would be like playing golf without a ball. Its a nice walk, but that's all it is. Without martial intent, you will get as much benefit by doing line dancing. (Sorry to all you line dancers out there!!)

Now Xue Sheng, get in there and lets have a rant!!!!!!

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

O.K. Here I go puting the cat amongst the pigeons. Taiji IS a martial art. If you practise it without the martial aspect, you are not practising Taiji!! You may be practising something that looks like taiji, but it won't be. It would be like playing golf without a ball. Its a nice walk, but that's all it is. Without martial intent, you will get as much benefit by doing line dancing. (Sorry to all you line dancers out there!!)

Now Xue Sheng, get in there and lets have a rant!!!!!!

Very best wishes

Nah you’re doing a good job on your own, you don't need me.

And a quick note on golf, I tend to agree with Mark Twain, and this comment will no doubt get me a beating

"Golf is a good walk ruined" - Mark Twain

 

[7starmantis]

Yes there are health benefits to Tai chi without the martial arts. There are health benefits to Tai Chi forms without the internal work too.

But these benefits are lessened by the removal of the internal work and martial side.

I agree 100%.

so I am unsure why you disagree with me, we seem to be stating the same thing.

True we agree quite a bit here, but I was specifically refering to this part of your post.

the relaxation, whole but sperate body movement, and quiet mind can only be reached through practice of application in conjunction with solo practice and a real good teacher to guide you.

I dont completely agree with that. Whole but seperate body movement and a quite mind are things that can be achieved without the martial application to Taiji. Thats simply by belief on the matter. I wasn't tryign to say you were wrong or anything, I just wanted to post my beliefs on it. Again, I'm not a proponent of applicationless taiji, I just dont believe all the benefits to be tied to martial application. The physical benefits are there regardless of the intent. Thats all I was trying to say.

Perhaps I am not writing clearly (which wouldn't surprise me) what I was trying to say is that with out learning the true combat methods one will not learn the real "internal" workings of the art. the use of whole body comes to a new and different level when one begins to learn to apply the moves to another person, the mechanics are honed much deeper.

not to start a controversy but you could take just about any form, whether gung fu, karate or what ever, slow it down, relax the body and mind and begin to listen to your body and it will generate great health results just like tai chi in a non combative form does, and I promote this, I promote anything that promotes health and longevity.

when one learn the methods of using internals in combat it greatly improves these skills and the understanding of your own body at a whole other level.

I agree and I think we are on the same page, I just wanted to clarify one point that I disagreed with.

O.K. Here I go puting the cat amongst the pigeons. Taiji IS a martial art. If you practise it without the martial aspect, you are not practising Taiji!! You may be practising something that looks like taiji, but it won't be. It would be like playing golf without a ball. Its a nice walk, but that's all it is. Without martial intent, you will get as much benefit by doing line dancing. (Sorry to all you line dancers out there!!)

Now Xue Sheng, get in there and lets have a rant!!!!!!

Very best wishes

I also disagree with this to a point. Taiji is a martial arts, your correct. I dont know that I would say your not practicing it if you remove the martial applications. Are you still practicing Kung Fu if you learn the forms, drills, etc but do not work serious application? Isn't that what we call wushu? Are the physical health benefits less with either? I feel the same way you do about the martial applications, its what taiji is and your not studying it completely without it, but it simply doesn't remove the health benefits to exclude it. The nature of taiji produces health benefits, like it or not they are there and people can gain from them by practicing taiji without getting into application and push hands. An elderly woman recovering from a stroke will most certainly not get the same benefits from line dancing that she will from taiji. As a physical therapist I could use many parts of taiji to bring physical health benefits to patients who are not interested in learning martial aplpication or really even taiji. There are many ways to use taiji and helping someone with health is one of them. Once again, I'm not suggesting teaching taiji without the martial applications as that is what taiji is, however people can and do receive health benefits from practicing taiji without learning or practicing martial aplications. The health benefits are documented and are most assuredly more than line dancing. Are they learning true taiji, no. Are they understanding taiji, no. Are they receiving health benefits, yes.

7sm

 

[Xue Sheng]

II also disagree with this to a point. Taiji is a martial arts, your correct. I dont know that I would say your not practicing it if you remove the martial applications. Are you still practicing Kung Fu if you learn the forms, drills, etc but do not work serious application? Isn't that what we call wushu? Are the physical health benefits less with either? I feel the same way you do about the martial applications, its what taiji is and your not studying it completely without it, but it simply doesn't remove the health benefits to exclude it. The nature of taiji produces health benefits, like it or not they are there and people can gain from them by practicing taiji without getting into application and push hands. An elderly woman recovering from a stroke will most certainly not get the same benefits from line dancing that she will from taiji. As a physical therapist I could use many parts of taiji to bring physical health benefits to patients who are not interested in learning martial aplpication or really even taiji. There are many ways to use taiji and helping someone with health is one of them. Once again, I'm not suggesting teaching taiji without the martial applications as that is what taiji is, however people can and do receive health benefits from practicing taiji without learning or practicing martial aplications. The health benefits are documented and are most assuredly more than line dancing. Are they learning true taiji, no. Are they understanding taiji, no. Are they receiving health benefits, yes.

7sm

What about Tai Chi line dancing

What I think you are talking about here is what I refer to as the Tai Chi health dance or Tai Chi lite.

I agree you do get health benefits from it, your example of the "elderly woman recovering from a stroke" If she does Tai Chi, just the forms and nothing else she may gain some strength and may gain some focus to help her recover. And to be honest I have no problem with this aspect of Tai Chi in this type of situation. Would she gain more if the internal was added? Most assuredly. Would she gain more if the MA was added? Possibly not in this type of situation. It could possibly injure her. But in a normal circumstance all the parts are necessary for the full benefit, and we appear to agree on that.

I think the problem occurs when people runs off and learn a tai chi form or 12 and then go off and tell everyone they do Tai chi or make statements like I don't DO martial arts "I DO tai chi" (Yes, that one someone actually said to me). But I will stop there because like I said I am trying not to go into a rant about this, like I have done sooooo many times before.

MUST..... NOT....RANT...... FEEL RANTING COMING ON… MUST SIGN OFF…BEFORE…I …. RANT

 

[Xue Sheng]

Rats!! The whole idea behind this was to get another XS rant going!!

But seriously, thanks for the thoughts on this matter. It won't be too much longer before I start up Tai Chi, and from what I've seen, the instructor I"m going too seems like the real deal. I hope I'll be able to keep that opinion.

Jeff

keep us posted and what style are we talking about?

 

[SFC JeffJ]

keep us posted and what style are we talking about?

It's one of the Chen styles. Ming if I remember correctly. But I could be pulling that out of nowhere.

Jeff

 

[Carol]

Rant! Rant! Rant! Rant!

The thing is XueSheng, when you rant, we all learn.

Come on, you know you want to!

Rant! Rant! Rant! Rant!

artyon:

 

[Ceicei]

MUST..... NOT....RANT...... FEEL RANTING COMING ON… MUST SIGN OFF…BEFORE…I …. RANT

Rant! Rant! Rant! Rant! The thing is XueSheng, when you rant, we all learn. Come on, you know you want to! Rant! Rant! Rant! Rant! artyon:

Oh, yes!!! Rant some more! Xue Sheng, come on!!! Surely there's more you can rant about! You have a way of making very good points when you rant instead of some mindless dribble.

- Ceicei

 

[7starmantis]

What about Tai Chi line dancing

What I think you are talking about here is what I refer to as the Tai Chi health dance or Tai Chi lite.

I agree you do get health benefits from it, your example of the "elderly woman recovering from a stroke" If she does Tai Chi, just the forms and nothing else she may gain some strength and may gain some focus to help her recover. And to be honest I have no problem with this aspect of Tai Chi in this type of situation. Would she gain more if the internal was added? Most assuredly. Would she gain more if the MA was added? Possibly not in this type of situation. It could possibly injure her. But in a normal circumstance all the parts are necessary for the full benefit, and we appear to agree on that.

Yes we do, and to further my point I think the physical benefits of regained motion in joints, flexability, balance, etc are so important and benficial to these types of people. I get on a rant of my own when people say we should abandon using taiji for this situation. Why should we hide the benefits of taiji from someone just because they dont want or cant practice the MA? I hate that, thats taking away from what taiji actually is.

I think the problem occurs when people runs off and learn a tai chi form or 12 and then go off and tell everyone they do Tai chi or make statements like I don't DO martial arts "I DO tai chi" (Yes, that one someone actually said to me). But I will stop there because like I said I am trying not to go into a rant about this, like I have done sooooo many times before.

Yes Yes, we agree completely here! I can't stand that at all. However, it is a great warning system to know if I'm dealing with a nutcase or a serious taiji student If they start making statements like that I can generally just write them off and not waste any more of my precious time or energy on them

7sm