Benefits of sparring with a black belt

[skribs]

I've just gotten my 8th keub, and while I like sparring with others of my rank, I feel I get more out of sparring with the black belts. My master has a sparring class, which has previously been kids-only but he recently opened up to adults. Well, I'm one of two adults who has showed up, so I often end up sparring the instructors or the few kids who are black belts (and trust me, they earned their rank, I can tell). Here are some of the benefits I've seen so far from sparring with black belts as a color belt...

1) They push you to be better. Instead of fighting at your level, you're fighting several levels up. This means you need to push yourself a lot harder in order to even be competitive. If you're both even, you might both get complacent. But when you're outmatched, you gotta up your game.
2) They can give you pointers. Most people of my rank can make a comment here or there, but the black belts know better how to tell you where you're going wrong.
3) They can set an example. You can see what works against you, and add that to your repertoire, whereas if you're only sparring against people with your skillset you'll never learn anything new.
4) They have better control. You're less likely to get hit somewhere you don't want to get hit by someone who is more accurate in their hits. The little black belts I mentioned earlier haven't ever hit me low, whereas I've had other colored belts come close to killing my kids (and I'm not a father yet, if you catch my drift) more than once.
5) There's less stress. I'm a very competitive person, but I know going against a black belt I'm going to lose. It's not a defeatist attitude, it's just a realistic point of view. They are faster than I am, they have more experience, they're better at reading my moves and hiding theirs. They are better at distance and timing, and their combos flow more naturally. This means that while I still try my hardest to score points, I don't get frustrated when they outscore me, which means I avoid the downward spiral of frustration and skill.

Anyway, that's just what I've seen. I have a lot of fun against them. What would you guys say are the benefits of sparring against black belts? Either what you've seen as a black belt sparring against colored belts, or vice versa.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

When I started, I would duck head kicks. When I did that to the 3rd dan instructor, he said it would work with him once, but after that, he'd look for it and catch me. He said it only worked on the lower belts who weren't experienced. So the benefit to me of sparring higher black belts was seeing that things that appeared to work may not work with someone who is better.

 

[Rumy73]

The benefits and detriments will vary by your opponent.

 

[donald1]

it also helps you get to know the upper belts better so when you go up for testing that may ease the nerves, also good to work with different black belts. usually most black belts use different strategies for effectiveness.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I changed to a different class (same club) a few years ago when my instructor moved away. I went from a class where I was in the top 4 or 5 ranked students (as a first dan) to a class with more than 30 black belts made up of prodominently third dans and up. I started to spar much higher ranked black belts daily and it improved my sparring a hell of a lot in the short term. I did start to find, however, that its still important to spend an equal amount of time sparring people of a lower level than yourself. I started to find (when I only sparred high ranking black belts) that I went into my shell a bit, having a bit too much of a "safety first" aproach. I found I no longer tried new things and lost a lot of flare because one mistake against a black belt their level usually led to pain. I actually find it just as beneficial to spar people of slightly lower level and use that time to be inventive and try new things that may not be smart to try against higher ranking students. A good mix of both has worked well for me.

 

[sfs982000]

I prefer to spar with black belts because of the same reasons that have been mentioned before in this thread, they help push you to become better. Every time I've ever sparred with the higher ranking black belts in my class I learned so much either with stuff that was doing right but also stuff that they saw that worked really well.

 

[skribs]

I've noticed that the people in my school who like sparring like sparring with people who are better than them. The kids who are black belts actually BEGGED to spar against me, not because I'm better but simply because I'm bigger. Some of the colored belts don't like sparring, but those that do want to go up against the best people in the class, because they know it's good practice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The only problem is if your black belt opponent beats you up badly and totally destroy your self-confidence, you may never be able to regain your self-confidence back.

I have always believed that if you can beat up all

- kids in grade school, then
- young guys in junior high, then
- young adults in senior high,

you may have developed your skill and confidence in the right order.

 

[andyjeffries]

The only problem is if your black belt opponent beats you up badly and totally destroy your self-confidence

Just to clarify, the subject of the post was "sparring" not fighting or competing. I think if during sparring a higher ranked opponent "beats you up badly" that's something you should definitely raise to the head instructor.

I think having juniors spar with higher ranked black belts is a very useful thing as higher ranks are generally much more able to pitch their level at just above their opponents, giving them opportunities to progress and showing them mistakes they're making.

I know when my black belts spar with coloured belts, generally at some point in the round each fight will stop while the black belt explains what just happened, why and how it could be prevented. Maybe I'm just lucky with my black belts...

 

[StudentCarl]

Just to clarify, the subject of the post was "sparring" not fighting or competing. I think if during sparring a higher ranked opponent "beats you up badly" that's something you should definitely raise to the head instructor.

I think having juniors spar with higher ranked black belts is a very useful thing as higher ranks are generally much more able to pitch their level at just above their opponents, giving them opportunities to progress and showing them mistakes they're making.

I know when my black belts spar with coloured belts, generally at some point in the round each fight will stop while the black belt explains what just happened, why and how it could be prevented. Maybe I'm just lucky with my black belts...

No luck, sir. It sounds like you taught your black belts well.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just to clarify, the subject of the post was "sparring" not fighting or competing. I think if during sparring a higher ranked opponent "beats you up badly" that's something you should definitely raise to the head instructor....

The black belt doesn't have to beat you up badly in order to destroy your self-confidence. If he can prevent you from executing your favor moves, it can destroy your self-confidence too.

A senior student can beat up all other junior students in school. Since he gets a big head, one day the teacher says, "You are too good to spar with other students. From today, you only spar with me." In the following whole year, that senior student only spars with his teacher. During the sparring, none of his moves works on his teacher. After one year of such training, the teacher said, "You are still not good enough. You will need to go back to train with other students". Since the teacher has destroyed the senior student's self-confidence, even when the senior student spars with his junior classmates. his moves no longer work any more.

This is called, "A teacher can teach a student some skills. The teacher can also take it back (by destroying that student's self-confidence)".

If you want to

- teach someone, you don't beat him up (destroy his self-confidence).
- beat up someone, you don't teach him (so he can't use what you have taught him to beat you up).

Again, "beat up" can have many different levels of meaning.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The black belt doesn't have to beat you up badly in order to destroy your self-confidence. If he can prevent you from executing your favor moves, it can destroy your self-confidence too.

A senior student can beat up all other junior students in school. Since he gets a big head, one day the teacher says, "You are too good to spar with other students. From today, you only spar with me." In the following whole year, that senior student only spars with his teacher. During the sparring, none of his moves works on his teacher. After one year of such training, the teacher said, "You are still not good enough. You will need to go back to train with other students". Since the teacher has destroyed the senior student's self-confidence, even when the senior student spars with his junior classmates. his moves no longer work any more.

This is called, "A teacher can teach a student some skills. The teacher can also take it back (by destroying that student's self-confidence)".

If you want to

- teach someone, you don't beat him up (destroy his self-confidence).
- beat up someone, you don't teach him (so he can't use what you have taught him to beat you up).

Again, "beat up" can have many different levels of meaning.

I dont know how anyone can have their self confidence destroyed by being beaten by someone of a much higher rank. Honestly, if I (as a first dan) spar a fourth dan and he doesnt wipe the floor with me then I would have to seriously question the school. I expect someone with ten years more experience to beat me and beat me easily, otherwise I would have to wonder what they had been doing for that extra ten years. I spar much higher dans all the time and when they win I certainly dont let it affect my self confidence. Instead I use it as an indicator of how good I can one day be if I continue training hard.

 

[skribs]

I know when my black belts spar with coloured belts, generally at some point in the round each fight will stop while the black belt explains what just happened, why and how it could be prevented. Maybe I'm just lucky with my black belts...

In my school they usually wait until the round is over If I REALLY screw up they tell me right then.

The black belt doesn't have to beat you up badly in order to destroy your self-confidence. If he can prevent you from executing your favor moves, it can destroy your self-confidence too.

This depends on the individual. I’ve been totally destroyed by moves the black belts use on me, and then I turn around and use them on the other color belts. I’ve learned some pretty cool jump kick combos as well as some tactics that the black belts are much better than me at, but I’m good enough with them to hold my own against people my rank.

If you are failing to execute your moves, it’s because of one of two things. Either 1) your “favorite move” is flawed, and the higher ranking person is showing you this. It’s like Gwai Lo Dan said, the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] Dan showed him how his techniques would fail against someone with more experience.

The second reason is that your favorite move is fine, but your sparring technique is lacking. You might be telegraphing. You might be slow. You might be repetitive and predictable. If a black belt doesn’t tell you what it was that let him win, then he’s not doing you any favors. But if they explain why they won, it gives you an idea of what to work towards.

The higher ranks also tell me I’m doing well and that I should keep at it, which does nothing to “beat me up badly”.

 

[drop bear]

I don't get free gifts from my coach. I have earned any technique that has worked.

I do get beat up a bit. That is the nature of what I do.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

I dont know how anyone can have their self confidence destroyed by being beaten by someone of a much higher rank. Honestly, if I (as a first dan) spar a fourth dan and he doesnt wipe the floor with me then I would have to seriously question the school. I expect someone with ten years more experience to beat me and beat me easily, otherwise I would have to wonder what they had been doing for that extra ten years. I spar much higher dans all the time and when they win I certainly dont let it affect my self confidence. Instead I use it as an indicator of how good I can one day be if I continue training hard.

This line of thinking is a little flawed. In martial arts, the awarding of rank is indeed a symbol of one's proficiency, but it is also a symbol of one's growth and dedication to the art. Not all martial artist are great fighters and saying that a person or a school is questionable because a higher rank is not as good as you think they should be is short sighted. There could be a whole host of reasons why you might be a better fighter; but you would probably not be a better martial artist.

Age, agility, strength, speed. All these things develop differently among people. You can overcome a skill and experience difference if you are more physically gifted than your opponent.

You mention a first dan versus a forth dan. This represents a minimum of 10-11 years in age between two people. If properly trained, a 25 year old can give a 36 year old a serious run for their money even if the 36 year old has the experience edge.

In my younger years I used to judge in this way. I'm better than this guy or that guy. Or, I would think things like how is this person a black belt when their technique is not as good as I think it should be. Now, I see training and rank from a different perspective. We are all trying to be the best martial artists we can be; some people's best is better than other people's best. It doesn't mean they or their school is a fraud.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Honestly, if I (as a first dan) spar a fourth dan and he doesnt wipe the floor with me then I would have to seriously question the school. I expect someone with ten years more experience to beat me and beat me easily, otherwise I would have to wonder what they had been doing for that extra ten years.

I disagree, in that I think time is probably one of the least important factors. I'd put athleticism as #1, put I'll start a new thread on that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I disagree, in that I think time is probably one of the least important factors. I'd put athleticism as #1, put I'll start a new thread on that.

I believe talent has a lot to do with everything. Without any dancing and gymnastics background, with just 9 years of training, my daughter "Natasha Wang" had won:

- 1st place 2011 California pole dancing champ.
- 1st place 2012 US pole dancing champ.
- 2nd place 2013 International pole dancing champ.
- 1st place 2014 international pole dancing champ.

http://natashawang.com/

 

[skribs]

This line of thinking is a little flawed. In martial arts, the awarding of rank is indeed a symbol of one's proficiency, but it is also a symbol of one's growth and dedication to the art. Not all martial artist are great fighters and saying that a person or a school is questionable because a higher rank is not as good as you think they should be is short sighted. There could be a whole host of reasons why you might be a better fighter; but you would probably not be a better martial artist.

Age, agility, strength, speed. All these things develop differently among people. You can overcome a skill and experience difference if you are more physically gifted than your opponent.

While I agree that not everyone within a given rank is equal, I will say that, for the most part, higher rank should beat lower rank, and the bigger the experience gap between ranks, the better the higher rank should be. I understand that past a certain point, you start to slow down, but for the most part someone with more experience should easily win.

You mention a first dan versus a forth dan. This represents a minimum of 10-11 years in age between two people. If properly trained, a 25 year old can give a 36 year old a serious run for their money even if the 36 year old has the experience edge.

You're assuming the two started at the same age. I started (well, re-started after 14 years) doing TKD at age 25. A lot of the black belts in my school are teens or early 20s. One of the students (the Master's kid, so there's a LOT of experience there because he's at the school quite a bit) is probably going to be 4th Dan before I get my 1st Dan or while I have my 1st Dan, and he will have the age advantage and the experience advantage.

Similarly, my Dad is starting again, and based on my age you can guess where he is. He thinks that as a colored belt he won't have much competition in tournaments, because he is in pretty good shape for his age. However, if he gets his black belt, most people his age who have black belts will probably have decades of experience. Although they might be more coaches/admin than competitors.

In my younger years I used to judge in this way. I'm better than this guy or that guy. Or, I would think things like how is this person a black belt when their technique is not as good as I think it should be. Now, I see training and rank from a different perspective. We are all trying to be the best martial artists we can be; some people's best is better than other people's best. It doesn't mean they or their school is a fraud.

I guess it depends if you're grading on improvement and effort or if you're grading on performance. Considering competition is divided based on rank, I wouldn't want to be competing against black belts if my sparring skills were that of a 5th keub, so in that respect it might be unfair to promote just because someone is improving. That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This line of thinking is a little flawed. In martial arts, the awarding of rank is indeed a symbol of one's proficiency, but it is also a symbol of one's growth and dedication to the art. Not all martial artist are great fighters and saying that a person or a school is questionable because a higher rank is not as good as you think they should be is short sighted. There could be a whole host of reasons why you might be a better fighter; but you would probably not be a better martial artist.

Age, agility, strength, speed. All these things develop differently among people. You can overcome a skill and experience difference if you are more physically gifted than your opponent.

You mention a first dan versus a forth dan. This represents a minimum of 10-11 years in age between two people. If properly trained, a 25 year old can give a 36 year old a serious run for their money even if the 36 year old has the experience edge.

In my younger years I used to judge in this way. I'm better than this guy or that guy. Or, I would think things like how is this person a black belt when their technique is not as good as I think it should be. Now, I see training and rank from a different perspective. We are all trying to be the best martial artists we can be; some people's best is better than other people's best. It doesn't mean they or their school is a fraud.

I never said the school would be a fraud, but in most activities practice makes perfect and if someone has done something longer and continues to practice then they get better and better. In 99% of cases someone who has played guitar for twenty years will be better than someone who has played for three years providing they both practice for the same amount of time. Where I train people aren't promoted because of time in grade but instead time actively training in grade. You cant just show up and mingle around for a few years and get promoted. If a wiley old fourth dan with twelve years hard training under his belt spars the young first dan in the prime of his life full of athleticism and flexibility, I know who my money is on, and it aint the first dan. As the poster above said, it depends on whether you grade students on improvement and effort or performance. Where I train it is strictly based on performance. I am yet to meet any first dan who could pass one of our fourth dan gradings, and if first dans could, it would mean the grading requirements are too simple. I believe in the vast majority of cases a higher dan will/should win everytime. Thats why they are ranked higher.

 

[drop bear]

While I agree that not everyone within a given rank is equal, I will say that, for the most part, higher rank should beat lower rank, and the bigger the experience gap between ranks, the better the higher rank should be. I understand that past a certain point, you start to slow down, but for the most part someone with more experience should easily win.



You're assuming the two started at the same age. I started (well, re-started after 14 years) doing TKD at age 25. A lot of the black belts in my school are teens or early 20s. One of the students (the Master's kid, so there's a LOT of experience there because he's at the school quite a bit) is probably going to be 4th Dan before I get my 1st Dan or while I have my 1st Dan, and he will have the age advantage and the experience advantage.

Similarly, my Dad is starting again, and based on my age you can guess where he is. He thinks that as a colored belt he won't have much competition in tournaments, because he is in pretty good shape for his age. However, if he gets his black belt, most people his age who have black belts will probably have decades of experience. Although they might be more coaches/admin than competitors.



I guess it depends if you're grading on improvement and effort or if you're grading on performance. Considering competition is divided based on rank, I wouldn't want to be competing against black belts if my sparring skills were that of a 5th keub, so in that respect it might be unfair to promote just because someone is improving. That's my opinion, anyway.

Sort of there is a fundamental problem with fighting progress that you get huge gains when you start but it slows down to be almost glacial after a while.

Doing a martial art like mine which is competitive quite often we see people with a short training time start to advance past those with a longer one. It is just part of the process.

It is one of those ego deals when you get caught by a guy you didn't think you should be caught by.

Of course this does not mean you have to stop your mentoring role it just means you need to be humble about how you train.

We had one of our guys who did a twelve week program and fight. Twelve weeks later he fought again recently did a bjj comp for giggle and won his decision. he is naturally gifted and will be manhandling most people in the gym soon enough. Some of those guys have years more experience.