Bassai Sho Video, Applications and General Discussion

[Makalakumu]

Bassai Sho means "to penetrate the fortress - lesser." This form is a modified version of what is typically taught in various Okinawan ryu. Among karate researchers, it is thought that the inspiration of both Bassai Dai and Sho is chinese leopard or tiger boxing. In TSD, however, we view these forms to be characterized by the snake.

The applications for this form are similar to those in Bassai Dai in regards to character.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a video of our version of Bassai Sho.

 

[IMP]

How many Bassai Hyungs are there and what do their names mean?

Ian

 

[IMP]

I'm back!

Shouldn't you make a Bassai Dai thread?

Ian

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

In TSD, however, we view these forms to be characterized by the snake.

I wish people would quit saying this. It is misleading. The form has absolutely nothing to do with snakes or snake fist or snake tecknique. It is southern crane...plain and simple...and most likely decendant of the Southern Shaolin school via one of the Ten Tigers of Kwantung.

The Emperor

 

[MBuzzy]

Emperor, UpNorth,

From GM Hwang Kee's "Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do)" "Origin of form's name: The original name of this form was Pal Che. Pal means "the selection of the best choice." In addition, Pal also means "fast." Che means "collect." Movements of this form are selected from the most famous and effective movements of So Rim Sa (a southern Chinese Temple) Kwon Bup such as Sun In Dan Si Sae, Ho Bing Si Mun Sae, and Pal Ho Mee Sae. The fast, light, and active characteristics of this form show the influence from So Rim Sa Kwon Bup. This, then accounts for the name Pal Che.
The Passai for is divided into two parts, passai Dai (Greater Passai) and Passai So (Lesser Passai)." Most of Hwang Kee's information comes from his years spent translating the "Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji" and ancient Chinese text detailing the earlier chinese martial arts.
He also speaks about the creator of the form and dates and places. There is an illustration of a Snake next to the description.

Another resource by GM Pak, Ho Sik describes the original meaning as "lesser and greater selection of the best choice." He also states "the characteristic of Bassai Hyung is a snake so that movement has to be quicker and smoother."

I have been working on translating the Hanja characters that deal with Bassai from GM Hwang Kee's writing, but my Native Chinese speaker is having difficulty. He can read the words, but they don't make any sense to him - he relates this to old english....you know the words, but since it hasn't been spoken in so long, it just doesn't make sense anymore.

I have seen this discussion on a number of different threads, so I am primarily looking for clarification. Please understand, I not not trying to argue or create dischord, only trying to understand. I am curious which resources refer to the Hyung as a "Southern Crane?" All of the resources that I have reference the snake. Especially since GM Hwang Kee was the creator of Tang Soo Do, and took a great deal of his information from the ancient Chinese.

 

[Makalakumu]

I wish people would quit saying this. It is misleading. The form has absolutely nothing to do with snakes or snake fist or snake tecknique. It is southern crane...plain and simple...and most likely decendant of the Southern Shaolin school via one of the Ten Tigers of Kwantung.

As much as I agree, many people in TSD think this about the form. I tell my students this, but I also tell them eactly what you have said.

I'm curious as to where this whole "snake thing" came from anyway?

 

[Makalakumu]

Emperor, UpNorth,

From GM Hwang Kee's "Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do)" "Origin of form's name: The original name of this form was Pal Che. Pal means "the selection of the best choice." In addition, Pal also means "fast." Che means "collect." Movements of this form are selected from the most famous and effective movements of So Rim Sa (a southern Chinese Temple) Kwon Bup such as Sun In Dan Si Sae, Ho Bing Si Mun Sae, and Pal Ho Mee Sae. The fast, light, and active characteristics of this form show the influence from So Rim Sa Kwon Bup. This, then accounts for the name Pal Che.
The Passai for is divided into two parts, passai Dai (Greater Passai) and Passai So (Lesser Passai)." Most of Hwang Kee's information comes from his years spent translating the "Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji" and ancient Chinese text detailing the earlier chinese martial arts.
He also speaks about the creator of the form and dates and places. There is an illustration of a Snake next to the description.

Another resource by GM Pak, Ho Sik describes the original meaning as "lesser and greater selection of the best choice." He also states "the characteristic of Bassai Hyung is a snake so that movement has to be quicker and smoother."

I have been working on translating the Hanja characters that deal with Bassai from GM Hwang Kee's writing, but my Native Chinese speaker is having difficulty. He can read the words, but they don't make any sense to him - he relates this to old english....you know the words, but since it hasn't been spoken in so long, it just doesn't make sense anymore.

I have seen this discussion on a number of different threads, so I am primarily looking for clarification. Please understand, I not not trying to argue or create dischord, only trying to understand. I am curious which resources refer to the Hyung as a "Southern Crane?" All of the resources that I have reference the snake. Especially since GM Hwang Kee was the creator of Tang Soo Do, and took a great deal of his information from the ancient Chinese.

I think that you may be looking in the wrong places. This form was originally Okinawan and it became Japanese. Then, this form was imported to Korea. Given the way people in Korea feel about the Japanese, it is easy to understand why the history is so revisionist.

Anyway, just take a look at the Shotokan versions of Bassai. You'll see the connection right away.

 

[MBuzzy]

Well, the more I research, the more I am finding that no one is completely sure. There seem to be two conflicting stories.

One school of thought says that it is of chinese origin and was descended from the Pal Che form. It says that the form was created in the 16th century.

The other school of thought has this as an Okinawan form, created in Japan and brought to Korea during the Japanese occupation. This was created by Itosu and I'm still searching for a year.

I do see the similarities between the Shotokan version and the Tang Soo Do version, but I can't find a video or description of any of the Chinese versions. My suspicion is that either this form or a different one was created in China and either came to Japan or the Japanese created a separate form with the same name. Finding more objective information on the Japanese version, just as a creation date might help. I am very intrigued by the mystery....but Bassai can be found in many different arts, so it is possible that many organizations want to claim it. The problem is that a good many people on message boards state that it is Japanese in origin......but the published source, by the founder of Tang Soo Do disagrees....so I'm at an impass as to which is true.

I know that it doesn't matter, but my curiosity has piqued.

In terms of meaning, I found this reference...

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"The Kanji used to write the Kata Bassai has no specific meaning. However, the word "bassai" does have meaning, which is "to take on the attack" or "to cut down". The translation, "to thrush Asunder' or "to beach a fortress" as sometimes written in western text, is written with different Kanji. The author has yet to resolve this anomaly."

I haven't found the Hanja for Bassai yet.

If you do know of any other resource, please let me know!

And again, please don't take my search the wrong way...you have been extremely helpful and so far, I am inclined to believe your history, it just seems like there is something missing due to the differences of source's histories.​

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

Perhaps this will ad clarity to your search.

Everything Hwang Kee learned about the Pal Che (Bassai) form, he did so from reading Japanese books on Okinawan Karate. The form, in its versions today, are all decended from the teachings of Bushi Matsumura of Shuri, instructor to the Sho (the Kings of Ryukyu - aka Okinawa) and the teacher of Itosu Yasutsune (who was also the teacher of Funakoshi Ginchen the founder of Shotokan).

This 'Snake' business is relatively modern interpretation made by some unknown Korean master(s) with regard to THEIR impression of the forms. They in fact, have nothing to do with these animals, are not representative of them, were not based upon them, and are not part of the Chinese martial arts that are named after them. Ergo, Bassai has nothing to do with 'Snake' or 'Snake Fist' martial arts. Hence my admonishment for people to spoke supporting this 'bad idea' of referring to is as a 'snake' form....or having 'snake' characteristics. This is misleading and draws students to research in totally wrong directions.

Bassai is a Japanese word. The Okinawan dialet pronounced it as Patsai which is similar to the Korean Pal Che. The reason you have Koreans talking about this form as Bal Sae (Korean pronunciation of Bassai) and also as Pal Che (Korean Pronunciation of Patsai) is because of differning Chinese characters that were used in writing down the name of the form. Hence why they teach the form as meaining 'Penetrate Fortress' and 'Best Choice' or 'Select Quickly'. All are attempts to translate from Chinese to Japanese to Korean and finally to English. As you can imagine....somethings get lost in the translation, while others get added to it. A best rendering would be "Remove Obstical".

OH...and the translation of 'Penetrate a Fortress' actually is more of a Japanese view as in their reading of the characters they see 'fortress' where in the original Chinese...a fortress isn't referred to. Regional interpretation has affected the translation rendered to us today. The fact this 'Penetrate a Fortress' rendering is so prevelant today is due to the wide spread dissemination of teachings from the Shotokan. This also is why the Korean Pal Che is so similar to the Shotokan Bassai. The early teachers in Korea were predominantly instructed in the Shotokan method or lineages in Japan. Modern researchers have been able to penetrate much deeper than this.

Many years ago I read where someone had discovered a small Kung Fu school in southern China who still practice a version of the form on the mainland. It was in a magazine I have since lost....or I would gladly give you the reference. Nonetheless.....most serious scholars believe the form was learned by Matsumura form Chinese in Fukien Province when he was there as an Envoy of the Sho of RyuKyu (a function he performed on more than one occasion). Please remember, this was the late 1800's. A Envoy's trip could last more than a year. Plenty of time for someone to pick up a new form and bring it back to Okinawa.

The Emperor

 

[MBuzzy]

Everything Hwang Kee learned about the Pal Che (Bassai) form, he did so from reading Japanese books on Okinawan Karate. The form, in its versions today, are all decended from the teachings of Bushi Matsumura of Shuri, instructor to the Sho (the Kings of Ryukyu - aka Okinawa) and the teacher of Itosu Yasutsune (who was also the teacher of Funakoshi Ginchen the founder of Shotokan).

The Emperor

I know that GM Hwang Kee did a great deal of research on all forms of martial arts from a vast number of sources, in fact, his research even went into the actual physics of martial arts, if you haven't read "Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do)," I strongly suggest it. He goes into the kinetic and potential energy, discusses why moves are performed they way they are, even uses the actual formulas which describe trajectory motion, power, and acceleration. Everything that I have found by Hwang Kee though, only mentions his Chinese research, which came mainly out of the "Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji," which is definately Chinese, because my Chinese friend and I actually found the section which discusses Pal Che, in the pages that Hwang Kee included.

Bassai is a Japanese word. The Okinawan dialet pronounced it as Patsai which is similar to the Korean Pal Che. The reason you have Koreans talking about this form as Bal Sae (Korean pronunciation of Bassai) and also as Pal Che (Korean Pronunciation of Patsai) is because of differning Chinese characters that were used in writing down the name of the form. Hence why they teach the form as meaining 'Penetrate Fortress' and 'Best Choice' or 'Select Quickly'.

The Emperor

Pal Che is actually Chinese, and the name was changed for Japan and Korea. The best I can tell, the use of the words Pal Che predates Bassai. Interestingly enough...Pal Che actually translates (literally) to "The gather firewood." As I said, I cannot find the Hanja (Chinese) characters for Bassai, only the Kanji (Japanese)...and I have no Japanese translator. I did speak to my Sa Bom Nim last night regarding the form Bassai and he assured me that Pal Che is in fact Chinese. As for Korean pronunciation, I know that there are a great number of dialects here in Korea, so there is no doubt in my mind that Bassai is pronounced differently in different places. I am curious where your Korean pronunciation translation came from though. I am becoming a decent Korean speaker, but I still have a great deal to learn. I can tell you though, that 밧 사 이 is the Hangul spelling of Bassai....the pronunciation is Pas - sa - ee. In Korean, P and B are represented by the same character, but change their emphasis depending on where they fall in the word.

So it looks like the simple answer is that Pal Che was created in Chinese and then transported to Japan and subsequently Korea....and along the way was changed significantly from its original form. I have even read that there are over 8 different version of the form...

 

[Makalakumu]

The root of Bassai is Okinawa. Looking into China is only going to net you the truth that you've been fed some disinformation. Their are many more then eight versions of this form...and if you look at most of them, they all come from Okinawa.

Mbuzzy - I mean no disrespect to your teacher, but as far as the origins are concerned, he is wrong.

I would be very curious to read what Hwang Kee actually wrote about this form. From what you are saying, it sounds like he may have cooked up an entirely new history for this form.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

MBuzzy,

Yes, I have read Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do). This is the English version of 'Soo Bahk Do Dae Kahm', Hwang Kee's master text on Tang Soo Do. The Korean version has a lot more information in it than the English version. WHy it was edited down during translation, I do not know. However, that is siderbar and not important to this discussion on Bal Sae.

First, part of your problem is you are reading the name of the form translated into Hangul. The key word here is 'TRANSLATED'. Hangul is not the original written language of Asia. Chinese ideograms are. These are called 'Hanja' in Korean language. To study forms, as you have already deduced, you must research the Hanja.

Problem: 1. You are beginning your research, your base line, from a translation into a 'phonetic' language. That is what Hangul (written Korean) is. It was designed purposely that way (quite a brilliant invention too). However, it does not, and cannot transmit in a phonetic phrase what a picture can. A picture says a thousand words. Corney...but true. And Hanja are pictures. The characters (Chinese ideograms) are used in all of Asia and at one time was the common written language of all the countries of Asian. While Asia did not have a common speaking language, it did have a common written language. China, Korea, Japan and many other nations used the Chinese written language, even when their spoken language was not understandable to one another. I state that with this cavaet: each country has its own idiosyncracies with regard to understanding of the characters meanings. Ergo, whey in Japan the characters for Bassai translate to 'penetrate a fortress', while elsewhere, they do not. For Korea or China....this would be a stretch of the interpretation of the characters...and not what would readily jump to mind. Nonetheless, the Koreans did get the characters for this form from the Japanese....because the form came to them from Japanese sources.

Prolem 2. - You seem to be focusing only on the book 'Tang Soo Do/ Soo Bahk Do'. Don't limit your research. In fact, if you check the text "History of the Moo Duk Kwan" by Hwang Kee, you will see where he clearly and plainly states he indeed did learn the form forms from Japanese Books on Okinawan Karate. I would think if he says so himself.....we can take him at his word on this.

Problem 3. - you progress forward in your research from the assumption that Hwang Kee is somehow and infallable source of information. This assumption misleads you to believing that not you nor anyone else could do similar study and come up with dissimilar conclusions. Hwang Kee may have been brilliant....but he isn't the only brillant martial artist to ever live. He also was human...and just as succeptible to foible as any human. I don't mean to denegrate KJN Hwang Kee here....simply acknowledge realism so that a barrier can be broken down.

Problem 4 - the Moo Ye Dobo Tong Ji is not the only text in Korea that references martial arts. It is just the most well know...and the most detailed perhaps. If you need a list of others....I recommend you go to the Warriro Scholar message board and make contact with Ondrej Sletcha. He is a fluent speaker of several Asian languages, and a scholar familiar with many Asian texts. Ondrej is one of the most open and accessable and reliable sources of information you can ever come into contact with. You will find many such posters at Warrior Scholar. It has become a magnet for the types.

(note to webmaster of Martial Talk: Don't take the above personal. You have a fine site that continues to build credibility. WS simply was at this before your Korean message board section began to attract the scholars).

With that said, I can tell you that there have been more than one set of characters written down for the form Bassai. And it has thus been translated in various ways. This has led to some confusion. Pal Che does not 'predate' Bal Sae'. It is simply a different set of characters that were used to write down the name of the form. Unfortunately, some of the early teachers of Martial Arts made no records. It was transmitted orally from teacher to student. It was later students that made the records. Students occasionally did not agree on what it was the master had said. Most probably....he said all of it....just not all to the same student. Thus...variation enters the evolution.

The Emperor

 

[MBuzzy]

This is all EXCELLENT information. Thank you both very much!

I want to stress again, please understand, I mean no disrespect my questioning or my research. I simply have a very inquisitive mind and being where I am is a great place to do research. It is a very rare chance for me to be here in Korea, surrounded by Korean and Chinese speakers and some of the best martial artists in the world. So please don't take any of my search personal. I have a great respect for both of you due to your wealth of knowledge.

In fact, the whole reason for being on this message board is because I have concerns about my training in Korea. I know how vastly different it is from the States and I want to continue bouncing what I learn against the experts there to ensure that I'm ready to train more when I return.

I will be taking my first trip to Seoul to train with Kwan Jang Nim E, Ki Un who has trained with GM Hwang Kee, H.C. Hwang, among many others. His particular claim to fame is training Chuck Norris, so I'm particularly curious about his feelings toward Master Norris.

Again, please don't confuse my search for knowledge and the truth with any disrespect, this is just the only place that I can ask my questions to native English speakers and where the questioning of what you are told is not considered disrespect. Thank you again!

 

[MBuzzy]

Another note, I am searching for a Hangul version of a few of Hwang Kee's books, among others. I am just starting my search with him, since that is the most readily available resource on Tang Soo Do. So some things that I say may be too early without enough research. I've learned to read and speak Hangul rather well, but I still have a lot of work to do on my Hanja. I will be taking trips to both Japan and China while I'm here, both with native speakers who I'm stationed with, so I'm hoping to find some new resources there.

As for the English version of Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do), I would be happy to scan in some of the pages of the book for you, UpNorth. It may be a slightly different version though, because I haven't found any Japanese references yet. This version was published in 1995, by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc. Of course, when the copyright battles happened, my teacher and his Master separated themselves from the use of the term "Soo Bahk Do." Please let me know if you would like anything sent electronically. This was an expensive and hard to find book, so I am happy to share.

Also, it may help to know that I'm an Engineer by trade, so I have a naturally very inquisitive mind and have been trained to question and research. Again, it is just my nature, by no means any form of disrespect.

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

I will be taking my first trip to Seoul to train with Kwan Jang Nim E, Ki Un who has trained with GM Hwang Kee, H.C. Hwang, among many others. His particular claim to fame is training Chuck Norris, so I'm particularly curious about his feelings toward Master Norris.

Well. OK. You need to know, Mr. Norris, and this is according his own biography, was trained by Shin Jae Chul.

This version was published in 1995, by the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation Inc. Of course, when the copyright battles happened, my teacher and his Master separated themselves from the use of the term "Soo Bahk Do." Please let me know if you would like anything sent electronically. This was an expensive and hard to find book, so I am happy to share.

Ooooooo! Uh....you probably don't want to be doing that.....particularly if you have announced it on a public message board. I'm afraid the Fed is REEEAAAAL protective of their copyrights. And actually, the book isn't unobtainable. The Fed will sell it...they are just a little pricey. There are lots of other places a copy can be obtained as well. Ebay frequently will have a copy...and Amazon.com will track one down for you. The book was originally published in 1978 and as far as I know...no text revisions have occurred in subsequent editions. The Fed also has Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do vol 2 for sale. It is a paperback...and again...a bit pricey. It has the upper dan hyung. But you will find little information in it about TSD or MDK history. A good source of information is Bobby Murphy, son of Henry Murphy (aka Master Henry). THeir website is http://www.classicmartialarts.com/ and you can purchase CD's from them have pdf texts and videos of forms. Very interesting and good material. Master Henry and his son Bobby are both very open and knowledgeable. Another good source of things TSD is Master Penfil. In particular, if you can make it Chicago....stop by Kennedy's Martial Arts http://www.tangsoodo.com/Home.htm (run by Patrick Kennedy) and visit with his teacher, C.I. Kim. Master Kim is a legend in the MDK.

If I had to recommend one book as a must read, which will give you a lot of insight into the Okinawan connection to the forms we practice, it would be Shotokan's Secret http://mariposa.yosemite.net/karate/ClawSecret.htm?

However....I'd recommend you check Amazon.com for the purchase. You can often find this book for less than $10 brand new.

Happy Hunting!!

The Emperor

 

[MBuzzy]

Well. OK. You need to know, Mr. Norris, and this is according his own biography, was trained by Shin Jae Chul.

The Emperor

Right, I've read that as well. But when he was in the Air Force, he was stationed at Osan AB, ROK....that is where he started training...or as I've read was "introduced" to martial arts, although I'm sure he had some training before that. That is where Master E taught him. Once Mr. Norris left Korea, that was it. I am very well aware of the fact that both my Master and his Master use the name to gain notariety. But I know that isn't a lie, because I've seen the pictures in Osan's gym.

Good point, I hadn't thought of the copyright deal with them. Thanks! I've got volumes 1 and 2, History of Moo Duk Kwon, plus the belt training manuals that they published....also a few others that I've picked up along the way...Ho Sik Pak's book and Kang Uk Lee's book. I have Master C.S. Kim and Joe Goss's book on order as well.

I'm going to start exploring those sites after work today. Thanks!