Bare Knuckle contact training in WC

[geezer]

Check out this recent video on bare knuckle contact training in WT/WC by Fighterman (who posts here from time to time). Don't be fooled by the video title. It has nothing to do with WC/WT/VT vs. other arts. It's strictly about the value of bare knuckle training with hard, but controlled contact. Any thoughts?

 

[Takai]

I agree with some of what he says. From Day 1 my Sifu has alway hit hard and expected me to do the same. Giving (and taking) actual hits is going allow you a different set of conditioned responses than non contact training.

A point of digression would be that I certainly see a lot of what I ascertain to be Systema in the way his students are hitting. No disrespect intended to him at all. Just my HO.

 

[geezer]

I agree with some of what he says. From Day 1 my Sifu has alway hit hard and expected me to do the same. Giving (and taking) actual hits is going allow you a different set of conditioned responses than non contact training.

A point of digression would be that I certainly see a lot of what I ascertain to be Systema in the way his students are hitting. No disrespect intended to him at all. Just my HO.

I never had any exposure to systema ...except for a few questionable Youtube clips, but "Fighterman" did a lot of training with the EWTO, the European branch of Leung Ting's WT. Some say that Keith Kernspecht, head of EWTO has a quality of movement that reminds them of systema. Personally, I'd say Kernspect's expression of WT seems way more evolved than the systema stuff I've seen on Youtube.

Kernspecht is the guy in the yellow and white top in the second half of this clip:

 

[Argus]

I do wonder sometimes if, due to so much chi-sau, we get into the habit of "playing a game of tag" where we're not hitting at the right range, or learning to hit effectively (relaxing, and extending through the target). Our most basic tools are by far the most important, and yet we tend to neglect really giving them the attention they deserve. Of these, there's certainly no tool more important than the punch.

The other good point he made was learning not to be afraid of taking hits. This is something that I think most traditional martial artists are lacking in; in comparison to say, boxers, who are learning how to hit, and get hit from the start. Without learning this, I think we get far too focused on chasing our opponents hands and "not getting hit" than hitting our opponent instead.

These are both big areas that I feel I am lacking in, at least. Boxing isn't really my thing, but I have been considered taking it up just to learn these aspects of combat.

By the way, I have to agree with Takai's observation about the way those students were hitting. It was a bit odd to me. While I realize they were probably just focusing on relaxation more than form, they were chambering their fists, swinging their arms with their elbows out, and doing some other blunt circular strikes at times. Their structure just didn't seem to be there.

 

[StormShadow]

I do wonder sometimes if, due to so much chi-sau, we get into the habit of "playing a game of tag" where we're not hitting at the right range, or learning to hit effectively (relaxing, and extending through the target). Our most basic tools are by far the most important, and yet we tend to neglect really giving them the attention they deserve. Of these, there's certainly no tool more important than the punch.

The other good point he made was learning not to be afraid of taking hits. This is something that I think most traditional martial artists are lacking in; in comparison to say, boxers, who are learning how to hit, and get hit from the start. Without learning this, I think we get far too focused on chasing our opponents hands and "not getting hit" than hitting our opponent instead.

These are both big areas that I feel I am lacking in, at least. Boxing isn't really my thing, but I have been considered taking it up just to learn these aspects of combat.

By the way, I have to agree with Takai's observation about the way those students were hitting. It was a bit odd to me. While I realize they were probably just focusing on relaxation more than form, they were chambering their fists, swinging their arms with their elbows out, and doing some other blunt circular strikes at times. Their structure just didn't seem to be there.

Being able to release you're fear of getting hit is very important. I've trained in boxing and you cannot box obviously without getting hit. Once you get hit a few time initially you begin to want to express yourself, impose your skill and will on the other person. The thoughts of how hard can this guy hit and I hope I don't get knocked out are no longer there. Now, that I train in wing chun, we don't spar every class but in training concepts and techniques, we stress to make a good amount of contact with the person without going 100%. It the concept being taught is to have your partner try to punch you in the face then you're partner should really be trying to punch you in the face. Again, not 100% full power but enough to be pseudo realistic. And we also do iron body work which the strength of the strikes received to the appropriate areas depends on the individual and how much they can endure, safely. The only thing we do not do "with alot of intent applied" is when joint techniques are practiced.

In all, I feel you must be placed in real as possible situations to gauge yourself and your ability to utilize what you've been taught. But doing so in a safe manner which you can hopefully walk away from without a bad injury.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My second Xingyi shifu (he did the same in Bagau too) use to hit us all the time as we did him in application and I think it was good training...but I'd never want my kids to do it

 

[blindsage]

I'm a big fan of contact training, and more and moreso bareknuckle. This video makes some good points at the end about bareknuckle hitting vs. padded hitting. With all the stuff coming out these days about head trauma from sports, including competitive fighting, it's beginning to look to me like padding reduces the chances of cutting and bleeding but seriously increases the chances of head trauma. I've been thinking about how I want to train students in the future and I'm leaning towards the type of bareknuckle training and sparring I did in Kyokushinkai, but with limited head contact and required mouth guards and eye protection. I really feel that some form of hard contact (not "full contact") is necessary for realistic skill development.

 

[jeff_hasbrouck]

There is a difference between training and being TOO rough. And for all you die-hards; Yes you can be hitting/getting hit too much/too hard.

Point in case; My old Sifu was renowned for smacking the ***** outta people. My Dai-si-hing went to the emergency room after sifu delivered a spade hand to glenns throat. It started swelling immeadiately to the point where glenn couldn't talk and was having trouble breathing. Don't get me wrong, glenn could still stand and everything, but you should NEVER hit this hard in training (without pads).

I was "raised" in this same environement. My sifu would repeatedly hit my chest and it hurt, but I didn't make any big deal out of it, untill one of the other high level students (a neurosurgen) started explaining to us exactly what happens by repeated trauma to certain points of the body.

For instance, when I run class, you do not hit your partners sternum under any circumstance; as there has been a few (not alot but enough) cases of people walking out of MA training with heart problems and respitory problems. I also don't allow full contact palms.

If you want to hit something full force, we have wall bags, focus mitts, punching bags or the dummy (muk jong). We are here to learn how to defend ourselves not how to take a hit. Now when I train people, I encourage them to get the pads on and excert force, but I don't force them. And honestly beginners can't just "Turn it on" like people who have years of experience. They NEED to be hitting and exploring how to use their "elastic force" and other striking methods.

But I see TOO many gung-ho instructors trying to look impressive when they have no clue about the REAL damage they are causing their students and themselves. Ya'll should go pick up this book "Karate Strikes and the Medical Implications". It's a little out-dated, but it will open your eyes to see what really goes on behind that fist that your throwing. And in EXPLICIT detail.

Some people yank and crank on me for teaching meat and potatoes WT, but I honestly think if your going to teach someone to fight; They need to understand every aspect of combat. Not just techniques; but theories, principals, basic phsycology and implications of what they are learning to do. We as instructors are placing a great amount of responsibility in someones hands and if we don't guide them correctly, it is very easy to abuse the knowledge we impart upon them.

I don't remember who said the comment about "too much chi-sau" but that is correct. Thats why we need lots of "lat-sau" or "free-handed fighting" or "Sparring" in our daily training curriculum. You don't really learn any entry techniques in chi-sau, and if you say you do, your a liar lol. Thats just the way it is. You can't become a well rounded fighter if you neglect any aspect of your training, and that includes but is not limited to the aforementioned in my reply to the thread.

I don't claim to be a leading expert on WT, but I have got in enough fights to know exactly how it feels to get my *** whipped and to do the *** whippin. And there is no "training" for a real fight. You can point someone in the right direction, but when there are no rules, there is no substitute.

Train hard and train safe folks,

Jeff