Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[hunschuld]

Find this post in another forum. It's very interested. Any comment?
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"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.

Totally agree,trapping is something that's great if it happens but not something to look for. I will say I look at WC as stand up grappling therefor a trap is something that can happen if there is some hand fighting going on but its not a conscious decision my conscious intent is to hit and kick. In chi sau you can play around and set traps up but that's because the other guy isn't trying to take your head off or take you down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Totally agree,trapping is something that's great if it happens but not something to look for. I will say I look at WC as stand up grappling therefor a trap is something that can happen if there is some hand fighting going on but its not a conscious decision my conscious intent is to hit and kick. In chi sau you can play around and set traps up but that's because the other guy isn't trying to take your head off or take you down.

This is why I think to

1. use a kick to enter the kicking range,
2. use a punch to enter the punching range.
3. If you can obtain a clinch (arm contact), you start from there.
4. If you don't obtain a clinch, you just keep your punches.

IMO, the WC sticky hand only train step 3 and skip step 1, 2, and 4. I do believe that the WC sticky hand should evolve into all 4 steps process.

 

[Jens]

at about 1:30 Lo Man Kam shows good triangle steeping.

You mean The step Lo Man Kam does at 1:42 into the clip?

 

[hunschuld]

You mean The step Lo Man Kam does at 1:42 into the clip?

Yes.

 

[Jens]

Yes.

So the forward "triangle step" is: you start at the base of the triangle in yi jee kim yeung ma, you then advance one of your feet forward along one side of the triangle towards the apex of the triangle (your right foot steps along the right side of the triangle, your left foot steps along the left side of the triangle), while facing towards the apex of the triangle the whole time? without first bringing the feet together as in when doing circle step before advancing your foot?

If so, I use this step to lock/check my opponent's lead ankle as I simultaneously close my lower center-line to prevent a groin kick, often times it can trigger chi gerk actions such as sweeps and kicks. Do you also apply it in this manner?

It's funny cause alot of wing chuners view the circle step as in the first section of the Yip Man dummy form where you step to the side then circle your leg into the dummy leg as the triangle step. So this helps to clear things up!

Can you also combine a side step with the forward "triangle step" to get more of an angle to the side?

 

[hunschuld]

Yes,you understand. You can combine it as stated

 

[Jens]

at about 1:30 Lo Man Kam shows good triangle steeping.

Starting at 2:16 into the clip, after Lo Man Kam does the forward forward triangle, he appears to follow it up with a forward shifting step. is this correct? or is this follow up step from that forward position also considered a forward triangle step as well?

Do you have a step in your Lo Kwai wing chun system where you step on one arm of a V with the point of the V facing you. You step on one arm - left or right with the same front foot as the side you step to. The right foot is forward if you step right, left if you step left?

In your Lo Kwai wing chun, are there stepping which spins 360 degrees to change lines of attack?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why does one use right arm to deal with his opponent's left arm only? What happen to right arm deal with right arm training?

Any comment?

 

[Callen]

Why does one use right arm to deal with his opponent's left arm only? What happen to right arm deal with right arm training?

Any comment?

There are many drills, shapes and applications that develop cross-hand actions.

The interpretation of Dan Chi Sau that you posted is a single arm training tool to help ready practitioners for the two handed, opposite arm rolling movement (Poon Sau) contained within Chi Sau. So if a practitioner wanted to develop cross-hand attributes, Dan Chi Sau wouldn't be the proper tool.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are many drills, shapes and applications that develop cross-hand actions.

The interpretation of Dan Chi Sau that you posted is a single arm training tool to help ready practitioners for the two handed, opposite arm rolling movement (Poon Sau) contained within Chi Sau. So if a practitioner wanted to develop cross-hand attributes, Dan Chi Sau wouldn't be the proper tool.

When will the right-to-right arms sticky hand training start?

- Before single sticky hand?
- After single sticky hand, but before double sticky hands?
- After double sticky hands?

Why does WC over emphasizes right-to-left sticky hand (mirror stance), but not emphasizes enough on right-to-right sticky hand (uniform stance)?

What's the possibility that your right arm will contact on your opponent's right arm (uniform stance)? IMO, that possibility should be more than 50%.

- In uniform stance, your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can only hit on your back.
- In mirror stance, your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can hit on your chest. Of course your powerful back leg roundhouse kick can hit on your opponent's chest too.

Most people like to stay in uniform stance to avoid that back leg roudhouse kick.

 

[yak sao]

When will the right-to-right arms sticky hand training start?

- Before single sticky hand?
- After single sticky hand, but before double sticky hands?
- After double sticky hands?

Why does WC over emphasizes right-to-left sticky hand (mirror stance), but not emphasizes enough on right-to-right sticky hand (uniform stance)?

What's the possibility that your right arm will contact on your opponent's right arm (uniform stance)? IMO, that possibility should be more than 50%.

- In uniform stance, your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can only hit on your back.
- In mirror stance, your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can hit on your chest. Of course your powerful back leg roundhouse kick can hit on your opponent's chest too.

Most people like to stay in uniform stance to avoid that back leg roudhouse kick.

There's a third option. Don't fight in a side stands towards your opponent.

The Wing Chun paradigm is generally fighting squared up to your opponent.... that's not necessarily saying toe-to-toe, rather we are square to our oponent as we try to fight him on his flank.

 

[Callen]

When will the right-to-right arms sticky hand training start?

- Before single sticky hand?
- After single sticky hand, but before double sticky hands?
- After double sticky hands?

Why does WC over emphasizes right-to-left sticky hand (mirror stance), but not emphasizes enough on right-to-right sticky hand (uniform stance)?

What's the possibility that your right arm will contact on your opponent's right arm (uniform stance)? IMO, that possibility should be more than 50%.

- In uniform stance, your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can only hit on your back.
- In mirror stance, your opponent's powerful back leg roundhouse kick can hit on your chest.

Most people like to stay in uniform stance to avoid that back leg roudhouse kick.

Good questions.

I would say cross-hand development is ongoing, the principles of the system supports cross-hand action at many intervals throughout training. Like so many examples of shapes, movements and drills, it is but one part of the whole.

It can found in the proper Wing Chun punch, for example punching through an opponent's attack, cutting or angling on top ("short-cut punch", or "intercepting punch"). Siu Nim Tao (SLT) also has cross hand concepts in it as well. Punching, inside Pak Sau, Taan Sau, Gaun Sau etc... can all be implemented on right-to-right/left-to-left. Even Wu Sau is often used as a helping hand in cross-hand actions.

It might be beneficial to think of cross-hand as not just "sticky", but equally as a stand-alone action. It can be utilized in Goh Sau, as an entry, as a Laan Sau, as an interception etc... It is also important to remember that the goal of cross-hand (or any Wing Chun action) is not to chase a certain hand, it is to utilize the action to gain the position to attack center. All that said, it can be incorporated into training at many points in any complete Wing Chun curriculum.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There's a third option. Don't fight in a side stands towards your opponent.

The Wing Chun paradigm is generally fighting squared up to your opponent.... that's not necessarily saying toe-to-toe, rather we are square to our oponent as we try to fight him on his flank.

The issue is if you fight in square stance, your center is completely exposed to your opponent's front kick (groin kick is the worse). IMO, when you stay in side stance, your body expose the minimum amount of target for your opponent's attack.

It has been proved that the square stance is dangerous for "double legs" in UFC.

 

[yak sao]

There are some WC lineages that do fight from the character two stance but in our particular lineage we don't fight with both feet beside each other.
Our hips/shoulders are square giving us access to both hands but one leg is forward inserted into the opponent's stance or making contact with their front foot or leg while the other leg is back.

 

[wckf92]

Why does one use right arm to deal with his opponent's left arm only? What happen to right arm deal with right arm training?

Any comment?

This would probably make a good thread topic by itself...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taiji push hand trains right-to-right arms contact. I have never seen any Taiji guy who trains right-to-left arms contact.

 

[hunschuld]

Starting at 2:16 into the clip, after Lo Man Kam does the forward forward triangle, he appears to follow it up with a forward shifting step. is this correct? or is this follow up step from that forward position also considered a forward triangle step as well?

Do you have a step in your Lo Kwai wing chun system where you step on one arm of a V with the point of the V facing you. You step on one arm - left or right with the same front foot as the side you step to. The right foot is forward if you step right, left if you step left?

In your Lo Kwai wing chun, are there stepping which spins 360 degrees to change lines of attack?

At 2:16 I would say it is a triangle step followed by a front step. Not really shifting but you could shift.

question 2 yes, Question 3 no spinning but you could if you needed to. Only rule is don't turn your back to your opponent.

 

[Jens]

At 2:16 I would say it is a triangle step followed by a front step. Not really shifting but you could shift.

Do you personally used this type of front step directly down the center as Lo Kam Man did here?

What's the name of the step in your Lo Kwai wing chun system where you step on one arm of a V with the point of the V facing you. Where you step on one arm - left or right with the same front foot as the side you step to. The right foot is forward if you step right, left if you step left?

At close range once the "gap" has been closed, do you personally find much use for "arrow stepping", or do you rely more on other types of steps such as shifting steps, circle steps, and triangle steps?

Snake footwork takes over after close contact is achieved. Crane footwork for long and mid range.

By "snake footwork" are you referring to the arrow steps? which types of steps do you categorize as "snake footwork"?

Find the bridge, cross the bridge, destroy the bridge. In videos I never see a wing chun master that bridges other than make the bridge with your face and his hand which again is not a Kuit of which I am aware. In a fight you don't extend an arm. Do not pose a mun sao. Mun sao is an attack asking the other person to intercept your hand. If there is no intercept then your mun strikes them. You only extend because you have something in mind. You are attacking. It doesn't matter if your opponent commits first. They either give you their hand via a block or intercept or they don't and you hit them.

How does this work if the opponent “bob and weave” with slips using evasive footwork to altogether avoid your man sau bridging attempt by evading it with a simultaneous counter strike as in how Mike Tyson does it?

Besides mun sao, what other methods/ strategies are used to "find the bridge" in Lo Kwai wing chun?

 

[hunschuld]

I don't want to get to deep in the weeds on footwork because there are so many variations but if you focus on the "forest" and not the "trees" the footwork becomes clear. Snake foot work is just close body foot work ,shifting steps, hooking steps,small arrow steps,circle steps. . a lot of footwork depends on your balance and hip usage. For example if you are a back leg weight person much of the close range footwork won't work or be usable.

Bob and weave. very easy to deal with unless you are facing a really good boxer.The goal of wing chun is to drive in and get close to your opponent. I like the phrase get under their shirt. I am looking to drive in and finish with a sweep or throw. Nothing ends a fight faster or can be more deadly then bouncing the back of a persons head off the ground. Also there are no blocks you only cover areas. When closing you cover the areas that are most vulnerable.

Mun Sao is not a focus. I just used it as an example since so many pose a Mun Sao. All hands should be active all the time in a fight. Nothing posed or frozen.

Chum Kui is all active bridging. We do not stand back at a distance and throw punches. In Lo Kwai's Wing Chun we close. Against bob and weave I like a cover with a Lan and Wu. some like Kwan. My goal is that when bob and weave has reached my closing distance I use spring steps to drive into him. If he is in a tight cover I am looking to use the Lan against his forearms between the elbow and the middle of his forearm to jam or control his punches. There is a good change that if we both meet at the same time and he is moving his weight side to side and I know how to use my hips I will off balance him on contact . Your weight must go forward and down. A student did this in a amateur match and just wore the other guy out . He just kept driving and closing and kept dumping the other guy onto his back.. They guy tried to kick, he ended up on the ground, punch, bob and weave. Same result. He wanted to fight from a distance and was constantly caught off balance. When closing be sure to keep you chin down and get your head into your shoulders. This helps to cover your jaw from a hook.
.

 

[wckf92]

Also there are no blocks you only cover areas. When closing you cover the areas that are most vulnerable.

Exactly.