Back To The Basics

[MJS]

Another thread in the Kenpo area, on what is the base, sparked me to start this thread. A member in that other thread, commented on the basics, so rather than sidetrack that thread, I wanted to start a seperate discussion.

It seems to me, that the basics are often neglected. People seem to be in a rush to learn technqiue after technique and kata after kata, but their execution sucks big time. Whats worse, is many times, you see higher ranks who suck. I mean, you could probably allow a little slack for a newbie, but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt be corrected. But to advance and still look like crap?

More times than not, when I go thru my techs and kata, even if I'm doing the techs. on someone, I perform everything at a slower pace, stopping to make sure that everything is where it should be. IMO, if you do this, hopefully, when you pick up speed, your body will just naturally move that way (the correct way) because its been conditioned as such.

Thoughts?

 

[J Ellis]

Yup. The only problem is, I feel like a hypocrite for echoing how important the basics really are...because every time I look at my execution I see more work that needs to be done to improve my own basics.

Joel

 

[Blindside]

More times than not, when I go thru my techs and kata, even if I'm doing the techs. on someone, I perform everything at a slower pace, stopping to make sure that everything is where it should be. IMO, if you do this, hopefully, when you pick up speed, your body will just naturally move that way (the correct way) because its been conditioned as such.

Thoughts?

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

[Manny]

Another thread in the Kenpo area, on what is the base, sparked me to start this thread. A member in that other thread, commented on the basics, so rather than sidetrack that thread, I wanted to start a seperate discussion.

It seems to me, that the basics are often neglected. People seem to be in a rush to learn technqiue after technique and kata after kata, but their execution sucks big time. Whats worse, is many times, you see higher ranks who suck. I mean, you could probably allow a little slack for a newbie, but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt be corrected. But to advance and still look like crap?

More times than not, when I go thru my techs and kata, even if I'm doing the techs. on someone, I perform everything at a slower pace, stopping to make sure that everything is where it should be. IMO, if you do this, hopefully, when you pick up speed, your body will just naturally move that way (the correct way) because its been conditioned as such.

Thoughts?

That's exactly my way of thinking. Learning the 10 basic techs of white belt were no big deal, in fact it took me 3 months to earn my yellow belt, however, the 24 techs from yellow to orange belt are becoming difficult to get and I realiced that maybe it will take 6 months to change the color of my belt, but now I think it could take more time.

Last night sensei told us.... well we know the 24 techs already so.... I interrup him saying..... yes sensei we already seen the 24 techs, however we don't know all of them, I mean we have practice the 24 techs but we don't recall all and we don't recall even all the names of each tech.

It does not matter if it takes me twice the time to earn my orange belt, but I want to learn well all the 24 techs plus the long form,etc,etc. I would rather be a good yellow belt than a miserable orange belt.

This times it seems to me senseis rush their students to get grades too fast, in the 80's I can rember when sensei did not allow poor (in tech) students to have kup examination, and also saw people that failed in their examiniation and were not aproved. Today is not as dificult to get a blet or grade (kup).

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

This is something that I have also noticed. I think it is a result of the typically huge curriculum that most of the Chow/Parker derived lineages have. The focus of interest becomes the techniques and the kata, because those are tangible, countable "units" of information, which make up a requirement. Gotta get the requirements in for the next belt, ya know. Gotta get thru it all and "get it". We all have limited time available to train, we feel like we gotta work on the new stuff and the old stuff suffers for it.

The curriculum can be so big that we end up chasing the list, rather than focusing on making it solid. I'm reminded of Pink Floyd's song Time, from Dark Side of the Moon:

"You run and you run to catch up to the sun, but it's sinking,
It circles around and comes up behind you again.
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older,
Shorter of breath, and one day closer to death."

I think it can be easy to be like this in training. Chasing the sun, thinking we'll catch it and it will mean something. But we won't ever catch it, and we forget what's most important: building a strong foundation. Stop chasing the sun, and deal with what you've got. Stop looking at the sky, and look at the ground under your feet.

My kung fu training seems to focus more heavily on the basics. While we have a large number of long and demanding forms, we do not have the extensive lists of self defense techniques like kenpo has. Instead, I spend a lot of time working on developing and perfecting the basic punches, the footwork, delivering the power in the specific way that my kung fu utilizes. That's what's important, because the entire system is built upon these methods. Then, when I practice my forms, all that foundation work must be brought into play. My kung fu teachers harp on the basics whenever I'm working on my forms. They'll stop me and point out where I'm getting sloppy with my technique. The forms are intricate and complex and lengthy and demanding, but the foundation must be solid throughout the entire form.

In kenpo, I think some people will work on the basics, but then they almost have a separation when working on kata or techs. It's like they step thru a door and leave the basics behind when working on the kata and techs. These cannot be two separate worlds. Those basics must be part and parcel of every kata and every SD tech, and every application.

 

[Jdokan]

Here's what I've done getting back to basics:
Throw out the pinans... All combinations are done for the opening moves against various strikes/pushes, etc.....this angers some of my contemporaries whereas others enjoy the idea....For me less is more with higher amounts of repetition....the main focus is always make it work...

 

[seninoniwashi]

Another thread in the Kenpo area, on what is the base, sparked me to start this thread. A member in that other thread, commented on the basics, so rather than sidetrack that thread, I wanted to start a seperate discussion.

It seems to me, that the basics are often neglected. People seem to be in a rush to learn technqiue after technique and kata after kata, but their execution sucks big time. Whats worse, is many times, you see higher ranks who suck. I mean, you could probably allow a little slack for a newbie, but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt be corrected. But to advance and still look like crap?

More times than not, when I go thru my techs and kata, even if I'm doing the techs. on someone, I perform everything at a slower pace, stopping to make sure that everything is where it should be. IMO, if you do this, hopefully, when you pick up speed, your body will just naturally move that way (the correct way) because its been conditioned as such.

Thoughts?

I just started at a new school about a month ago. It's interesting because no one wears belts. They all have them but for the most part they keep them out in their cars. Advanced students can be picked out by how they perform and their conduct in class as can the beginners.

Being a bit of a traditionalist at first I didn't really like the idea but after spending some time around it I've come to really like the idea. Students are judged by action and not what they wear.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I just started at a new school about a month ago. It's interesting because no one wears belts. They all have them but for the most part they keep them out in their cars. Advanced students can be picked out by how they perform and their conduct in class as can the beginners.

Being a bit of a traditionalist at first I didn't really like the idea but after spending some time around it I've come to really like the idea. Students are judged by action and not what they wear.

I was wondering how that was going. I'm glad you enjoy it. You should invite me along some time.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Another thread in the Kenpo area, on what is the base, sparked me to start this thread. A member in that other thread, commented on the basics, so rather than sidetrack that thread, I wanted to start a seperate discussion.

It seems to me, that the basics are often neglected. People seem to be in a rush to learn technqiue after technique and kata after kata, but their execution sucks big time. Whats worse, is many times, you see higher ranks who suck. I mean, you could probably allow a little slack for a newbie, but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt be corrected. But to advance and still look like crap?

More times than not, when I go thru my techs and kata, even if I'm doing the techs. on someone, I perform everything at a slower pace, stopping to make sure that everything is where it should be. IMO, if you do this, hopefully, when you pick up speed, your body will just naturally move that way (the correct way) because its been conditioned as such.

Thoughts?

The techs and forms are a good way to work those basics.

 

[seninoniwashi]

I was wondering how that was going. I'm glad you enjoy it. You should invite me along some time.
Sean

For sure amigo - I just need to get comfortable with everyone there first. It's a real small class though . I'm bummed I can't do it more then a few days a week.

 

[Flying Crane]

The techs and forms are a good way to work those basics.

I think they CAN be, and they SHOULD be, but for a lot of people, this is where they fall apart.

People need to build the basics all by themselves first, before they start combining them with techs and kata. I think that's where people fail. They think they are doing the basics by doing techs and kata, but they never built proper basics first.

When working on the techs and kata, those basics should all be in there and be solid. But techs and kata involve moving from one position to another, simultaneously with strikes and positioning and shifting of stances and developing and delivering power and whatnot. This is a lot more complex than basics all by themselves, and it provides plenty of opportunity to get sloppy, especially when people are thinking more about getting thru to the end and going as fast as possible and they forget to make sure the basics are still solid thru out the execution.

So even tho students are working on the techs and kata, they still need to take time and continue to work on the basics separately. And then keep the basics in mind when working on other things. It can't ever end or be put behind you.

I sort of view techs and kata as "advanced basics", because you are taking those basics and putting them to real use. So yes, techs and kata are basics, but there is a foundation beneath that, that cannot be forgotten about.

 

[MJS]

Great replies! Regarding the use of kata/forms to work on the basics....I have to agree with those that said that they should work them seperate first. If we stop and think about it, when we teach basics to new people, or to clarify, when I teach them to new people, I do it from a stationary stance first, then gradually add in movement. IMO, if they can't figure out how to do them static, they're sure as hell not going to be able to move and do them correctly.

Its interesting, because now that I think back to that other thread, when Doc said that it was a month before a student gets to the first yellow tech. If we stop and think about this, it makes alot of sense. New students, even those with prior experience, will most likely be uncoordinated, until they learn the way that Kenpo executes the material. So, again, if they can't perform this stuff static, they wont do it with movement, all of which is found in kata and sd.

 

[MJS]

Yup. The only problem is, I feel like a hypocrite for echoing how important the basics really are...because every time I look at my execution I see more work that needs to be done to improve my own basics.

Joel

I dont think you are a hypocrite for saying that, because you, like me, are admitting that we need work on our basics. If I were to say that my basics were perfect, when they really weren't and still preached about quality, then yes, hypocrite would be an applicable word.

 

[Flying Crane]

So, again, if they can't perform this stuff static, they wont do it with movement, all of which is found in kata and sd.

And then throw an uke into the mix...

Really, when I sit back and think about it, I could see spending a lot more than a month on the basics, before starting in on the tech lists. I don't teach, so I don't have a way of doing this, but I think it could certainly be justified. But not if you are trying to make a lot of money with a lot of students. They'll get bored when they realize they could be an orange belt somewhere else already, when you are still just helping them build their foundation.

When I started learning White Crane kung fu, if memory serves, I spent several months just working on the basic stances and punches that are somewhat unique to our system. And I'm still trying to get them right, 12 years later. But it was several months before my sifu began to teach me the first form. And that first form was just those basic punches done with stepping (well, ok, there's actually more than that going on, but for the sake of discussion it'll due). And it was probably at least a year in before he began teaching me the next form, which becomes much more complex.

And I was already a martial arts veteran of about 15 years or more.

 

[MJS]

And then throw an uke into the mix...

Agreed.

Really, when I sit back and think about it, I could see spending a lot more than a month on the basics, before starting in on the tech lists. I don't teach, so I don't have a way of doing this, but I think it could certainly be justified. But not if you are trying to make a lot of money with a lot of students. They'll get bored when they realize they could be an orange belt somewhere else already, when you are still just helping them build their foundation.

Doc hit on this in that other thread, and I commented as well. IMO, it all comes down to quantity vs quality. People are more fascinated on getting, getting, getting, instead of taking their time. Its those same people, that'll be wearing the high ranking belt, get their *** kicked, and wonder why, after spending time and money to train, why they suck so bad. That in and of itself, is priceless. LOL.

When I started learning White Crane kung fu, if memory serves, I spent several months just working on the basic stances and punches that are somewhat unique to our system. And I'm still trying to get them right, 12 years later. But it was several months before my sifu began to teach me the first form. And that first form was just those basic punches done with stepping (well, ok, there's actually more than that going on, but for the sake of discussion it'll due). And it was probably at least a year in before he began teaching me the next form, which becomes much more complex.

And I was already a martial arts veteran of about 15 years or more.

 

[KenpoDave]

Yup. The only problem is, I feel like a hypocrite for echoing how important the basics really are...because every time I look at my execution I see more work that needs to be done to improve my own basics.

Joel

That's the point. Perfection is a moving target.