Back to Reality: Effective Knife Techniques

[Cruentus]

EDIT: How then would this be dramatically different than using a gun? A person can claim the gun was used in self-defense since it is evidently not used for carpentry.

Good question.

The difference is that a legally obtained and carried and licensed firearm is acceptable by society and the courts as a self-defense tool; a knife is not.

It is more about perception then anything else. A law abiding citizen with a properly licensed gun is more likely to be seen as such rather then the same citizen that uses a knife instead and claims that the knife was a self-defense tool. There is this perception that guns are licensed by the state for use in a defensive situation (because in a sense they are) where as knives are not.

The thing to remember is that the courtroom is a huge grey area. If one has to use lethal force in self-defense, one has to expect that they will have to defend him/herself in court, and justify those actions to the police, the prosecuter and attorneys, the judge, and possibly a jury. What makes or breaks any self-defense claim is the issue of "reasonableness," or the question if your actions were fitting of a "reasonable" person.

Well, what is "reasonable?" This is very subjective in nature. What is reasonable to you who is a martial artist who understands knives might be completely unreasonable to the people who are deciding your case.

There is this perception that the laws are definative on these issues. They are usually not. The legal "game" is a dangerous game where you are doing what you can to stack the deck in your favor. There is no black and white answer, as it will be the totality of the circumstance mixed with the subjective interpretations of the courts that decides your fate. So, what you are doing is taking any and all measures to ensure that you win in court as well as in self-defense. Because you can count on facing a scary and difficult battle if you do have to defend yourself, you will be glad that you took the proper precautions.

 

[Cruentus]

I could, but I wouldn't. Other than description/proximity, I would not say anything until I have reached competent counsel.

That is the advice of one of the most prominent defense attorneys in my state and the person that is working with me for firearms training. I believe his advice is sound, and have no reason to deviate from it. But, that's just what I would do.

That is cool. Remember, it is all about stacking the deck in your favor, not on a black and white answer. So, saying that you "were forced to defend yourself" isn't a bad thing to say even though the self-defense pool has been crapped in, as it may help when the police write that all too important initial report.

This is according to legal experts and criminal attorneys in my state, who are known as being the best at what they do. So, I think that they should all fight in a cage match! :boxing:

But, seriously, it does just go to show how grey these things really can be. Even among legal experts, not everyone agrees...

 

[Ceicei]

The difference is that a legally obtained and carried and licensed firearm is acceptable by society and the courts as a self-defense tool; a knife is not.

Good point. I really enjoy your posts and how you convey your thoughts. You've helped give me a better idea and thus, become a better martial artist. Thank you.

- Ceicei

 

[Cruentus]

Good point. I really enjoy your posts and how you convey your thoughts. You've helped give me a better idea and thus, become a better martial artist. Thank you.

- Ceicei

Thanks Ceicei. It helps me to have to articulate myself regarding these issues as well, and helps to see where people are on this matter!

 

[Carol]

That is cool. Remember, it is all about stacking the deck in your favor, not on a black and white answer. So, saying that you "were forced to defend yourself" isn't a bad thing to say even though the self-defense pool has been crapped in, as it may help when the police write that all too important initial report.

This is according to legal experts and criminal attorneys in my state, who are known as being the best at what they do. So, I think that they should all fight in a cage match! :boxing:

But, seriously, it does just go to show how grey these things really can be. Even among legal experts, not everyone agrees...

I wanna see lawyers in a cage match. I'd pay. :roflmao:

The law is gray, there are many different factors (state, municipal) and....where my too-focused enginerdy brain is focused on talking with the police, there are times when you would need to say more than that...such as calling 911...and would need to know phrases like "forced to defend".

It is gray, its confusing, and if you live near a state line or live where the states are really small you may have to learn the laws of more than one state...and that gets even more confusing.

Its great stuff as usual Cruentus. :asian:

 

[Cruentus]

there are times when you would need to say more than that...such as calling 911...and would need to know phrases like "forced to defend".

Very Good point. The 9-11 call is exactly when you would say things like "I was attacked and forced to defnd myself," actually.

Its great stuff as usual Cruentus. :asian:

Thanks! I try anyway...

 

[Carol]

Thanks! I try anyway...

Oh you rock! This is why I don't know if I'd ever teach MA in any capacity. I'd spend the whole class explaining the details of how to properly dot an i and forget that there are 25 other letters that have to be covered. :rofl:

 

[Cruentus]

Oh you rock! This is why I don't know if I'd ever teach MA in any capacity. I'd spend the whole class explaining the details of how to properly dot an i and forget that there are 25 other letters that have to be covered. :rofl:

I doubt it! I'm sure you'd do fine as a teacher. It just takes skill and practice at teaching. Some of my best teachers (Manong Ted Buot) were also Engineers. Sometimes that attention to detail comes in handy!

 

[Rich Parsons]

So if you cannot claim "self defense" since it might be incriminating when carrying a knife, then what can you claim if something happens and you have to use your "tool"? What would you call it then when defending yourself?

- Ceicei

I have forgotten that I had a tool in my pocket and gone to walk into a court room or through airport security. Most of these were before 9/11/01 so it was not as bad.

What I tell them is the truth. I carry a blade that has a big enough handle for me to use properly. (* Why and how would you need to use that thing? *) I use it to open boxes at work, sometimes can fly. But what I say is that I am an engineer and travel in dvelopment cars. Sometimes in our testing something can happen, an accident or such. Done on private property or test facilities. The issue is that the serrated edge cuts the seat belt to get somene out and the tanto tip allows me to puncture the door to open it up to be able to manual open a door. (* If at this time there are any EMT's present they have smiled and I smiel and look at their blade which is similar. *)

I do not recommend you say anything untruthful. If you have a reason for a tool then you have a reason for a tool.

As to self-defense in the end my car/truck that I used to run someone over or hit them to get away from the bad guy with a weapon could be assault and battery with s deadly weapon with the intent of ... , . Yet the vehicle is nothing more than a tool to get you from point A to point B.

 

[MJS]

Just to get the thread back on track a bit, I'd like to discuss some of the knife defenses that we have in our system. I'm sure there are some that are liked and some that are disliked. What do you do, if anything, to make them more applicable?

I started a thread here where can continue to discuss the laws, etc.

Mike

 

[tuturuhan]

Just to get the thread back on track a bit, I'd like to discuss some of the knife defenses that we have in our system. I'm sure there are some that are liked and some that are disliked. What do you do, if anything, to make them more applicable?

I started a thread here where can continue to discuss the laws, etc.

Mike

Hmmm...lawyer jokes...and the law. I won't touch it. I want to...but, I'll try to abide my Mike's thread.

A true story...in his youth, my old teacher Ben Largusa used to go into places called "sugalan" gambling halls, places where the "old guys" would hang out. He would listen to them tell tall tales about their knife fighting exploits.

In heated discussion...someone would invariably stand up to prove he was the real deal. He would pull up his shirt and say "look...see the scars".

Ben, would walk out thinking...bullpucky (paraphased). "If this guy was good...he wouldn't have any scars at all. As Ben mellowed with age, he said he realized the errors of his youth. "That guy was in fact really good...he was alive to tell the story".

The Secret of the Knife:
Stories aside, effective knife fighting begins with controling one's emotions. This is the secret. Adrenelin, fight or flight instincts set in as soon as you see a guy holding a "live blade" It gets worse when the knife is coming toward your belly or your face. It becomes tantamont when two gives are wielding blades and interacting...even if they are simply doing "decadena". Fear is very real.

The trick, is to slowly learn to control the fear. In steps, you begin with just holding the live blade. Neuological studies show that adrenelin and cortisol (the stress hormone) are more controlled in women than in men. As such, believe it or not, women are able to control the knife much much better than men. Secondly, the fine motor movements that women possess, allow them to be "detail oriented" when exacting finesse and fine placement of the blade. This is why I wait two years before I teach my male students the knife.

Lastly, the small hidden blade...allows a woman or a man to hide the blade, strategically giving an advantage. You only show the blade at the last second. In the movies, Steven Seagal pulls the weapon out and shows you are big and nasty it is. He attempts to intimidate his opponent and his opponent intimidates back. My students, are taught to keep the weapon hidden...secret until it is too late. (The black/white of the Yin/Yang...the male shows his weapon to intimidate...the female keeps it hidden using stealth to her advantane) (Of course, when the knife bites...it doesn't matter is your knife style is yang/male or yin/female...when it bites it is genderless)

 

[MJS]

Hmmm...lawyer jokes...and the law. I won't touch it. I want to...but, I'll try to abide my Mike's thread.

A true story...in his youth, my old teacher Ben Largusa used to go into places called "sugalan" gambling halls, places where the "old guys" would hang out. He would listen to them tell tall tales about their knife fighting exploits.

In heated discussion...someone would invariably stand up to prove he was the real deal. He would pull up his shirt and say "look...see the scars".

Ben, would walk out thinking...bullpucky (paraphased). "If this guy was good...he wouldn't have any scars at all. As Ben mellowed with age, he said he realized the errors of his youth. "That guy was in fact really good...he was alive to tell the story".

The Secret of the Knife:
Stories aside, effective knife fighting begins with controling one's emotions. This is the secret. Adrenelin, fight or flight instincts set in as soon as you see a guy holding a "live blade" It gets worse when the knife is coming toward your belly or your face. It becomes tantamont when two gives are wielding blades and interacting...even if they are simply doing "decadena". Fear is very real.

The trick, is to slowly learn to control the fear. In steps, you begin with just holding the live blade. Neuological studies show that adrenelin and cortisol (the stress hormone) are more controlled in women than in men. As such, believe it or not, women are able to control the knife much much better than men. Secondly, the fine motor movements that women possess, allow them to be "detail oriented" when exacting finesse and fine placement of the blade. This is why I wait two years before I teach my male students the knife.

Lastly, the small hidden blade...allows a woman or a man to hide the blade, strategically giving an advantage. You only show the blade at the last second. In the movies, Steven Seagal pulls the weapon out and shows you are big and nasty it is. He attempts to intimidate his opponent and his opponent intimidates back. My students, are taught to keep the weapon hidden...secret until it is too late. (The black/white of the Yin/Yang...the male shows his weapon to intimidate...the female keeps it hidden using stealth to her advantane) (Of course, when the knife bites...it doesn't matter is your knife style is yang/male or yin/female...when it bites it is genderless)

With all due respects, this really isn't addressing the original thread topic. This is what was originally posted.

Ok, the purpose of this thread is not to point fingers but to get a sense of reality concerning knife encounters.

What do you consider to be proper knife self defense practices and what are some of your pet peeves that you have seen concerning blade self-defense?

I take this as picking a knife technique and discussing its application, its weak and strong points, and how, if at all, it could be improved upon.

Mike

 

[tuturuhan]

Mike,

We do not have "set knife defenses". Everything is about absorbing the knife attack and devastating the limb that transports the knife.

If one uses a "set technique" that doesn't fit the situation he gets killed. For us, the idea is to react to the knife with "one concept/one movement" that can be used in a multiplicity of situations.

With no intent to joke, In the "Karate Kid" the old man talked about "Wax on wax off". This movement, performed "spherically" rather then simply vertically is what we attempt to do (in general) for every knife attack regardless of the angle of attack. At some point the circle of the hand will meet the oncoming attack, and the second circular hand will devastate, control and manipulate the transporting arm.

Kamatuuran Concept:
1) first rule, do not attempt to engage...instead "don't get hit" by moving or positioning your body to go inside the knife to the eye of the storm. The move is seemingly counter-intuitive. But, by going inside the arc of the knife, the opponent is in general prevented from striking a second time. If I were to go backward, it would allow the knife fighter a second chance to reach out and strike.

2) second rule, if you get hit, (and eveyone gets cut...I don't care how good you are) your elbows are already positioned into what the "manongs" called the manila envelope (literally). In this way, you survive to fight another day.

3) third rule, then and only then engage by devasting, redirecting, and zoning the weapon/knife to further insure your life.

As such, my last post though "storylike" was on point from my perspective. Though, we may disagree respectfully.

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

 

[tellner]

Excellent advice Joseph. Close in or far away. If you sit there at the middle distance and try to grab the knife hand out of the air you will be turned into sushi.

 

[kuntawguro]

Mike,

We do not have "set knife defenses". Everything is about absorbing the knife attack and devastating the limb that transports the knife.

If one uses a "set technique" that doesn't fit the situation he gets killed. For us, the idea is to react to the knife with "one concept/one movement" that can be used in a multiplicity of situations.

With no intent to joke, In the "Karate Kid" the old man talked about "Wax on wax off". This movement, performed "spherically" rather then simply vertically is what we attempt to do (in general) for every knife attack regardless of the angle of attack. At some point the circle of the hand will meet the oncoming attack, and the second circular hand will devastate, control and manipulate the transporting arm.

Kamatuuran Concept:
1) first rule, do not attempt to engage...instead "don't get hit" by moving or positioning your body to go inside the knife to the eye of the storm. The move is seemingly counter-intuitive. But, by going inside the arc of the knife, the opponent is in general prevented from striking a second time. If I were to go backward, it would allow the knife fighter a second chance to reach out and strike.

2) second rule, if you get hit, (and eveyone gets cut...I don't care how good you are) your elbows are already positioned into what the "manongs" called the manila envelope (literally). In this way, you survive to fight another day.

3) third rule, then and only then engage by devasting, redirecting, and zoning the weapon/knife to further insure your life.

As such, my last post though "storylike" was on point from my perspective. Though, we may disagree respectfully.

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

This is very similar to what I just posted in "Maharlika Kuntaw" close- but still recognizable

 

[MJS]

Mike,

We do not have "set knife defenses". Everything is about absorbing the knife attack and devastating the limb that transports the knife.

If one uses a "set technique" that doesn't fit the situation he gets killed. For us, the idea is to react to the knife with "one concept/one movement" that can be used in a multiplicity of situations.

With no intent to joke, In the "Karate Kid" the old man talked about "Wax on wax off". This movement, performed "spherically" rather then simply vertically is what we attempt to do (in general) for every knife attack regardless of the angle of attack. At some point the circle of the hand will meet the oncoming attack, and the second circular hand will devastate, control and manipulate the transporting arm.

Kamatuuran Concept:
1) first rule, do not attempt to engage...instead "don't get hit" by moving or positioning your body to go inside the knife to the eye of the storm. The move is seemingly counter-intuitive. But, by going inside the arc of the knife, the opponent is in general prevented from striking a second time. If I were to go backward, it would allow the knife fighter a second chance to reach out and strike.

2) second rule, if you get hit, (and eveyone gets cut...I don't care how good you are) your elbows are already positioned into what the "manongs" called the manila envelope (literally). In this way, you survive to fight another day.

3) third rule, then and only then engage by devasting, redirecting, and zoning the weapon/knife to further insure your life.

As such, my last post though "storylike" was on point from my perspective. Though, we may disagree respectfully.

Tuhan Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

The Arnis that I train, has knife defenses as part of the regular material. However, just like an empty hand technique, they're used to give the student a foundation to build off of. Will the defender be able to pull off a full technique? Probably not, but as I said, parts, ideas, concepts of the technique can be used.

Earlier in this thread, I posted a video clip of Karl Tanswell. IMHO, I think that he brings up some very good points regarding knife defense. Chances are, our movement, parries, etc. are going to come into play during the initial defense.

Mike