Authentic Five Animal Style

[CMyers0323]

I've had this book for some time and finally decided to give it a quick look through. When I started reading the Dragon section they mention 5 element dragons. But there isn't any further mention about them and the relation to either theory or kung fu/techniques and such. Anyone have any suggestions or know where I can read more about the elemental dragons

I can't upload a picture of the cover for some reason but it's "Authentic Five Animals Style Hasayfu Hung Kuen" by Wing Lam

 

[geezer]

I've had this book for some time and finally decided to give it a quick look through. When I started reading the Dragon section they mention 5 element dragons. But there isn't any further mention about them and the relation to either theory or kung fu/techniques and such. Anyone have any suggestions or know where I can read more about the elemental dragons

I can't upload a picture of the cover for some reason but it's "Authentic Five Animals Style Hasayfu Hung Kuen" by Wing Lam

Where's Oily Dragon when you need him?

 

[CMyers0323]

Where's Oily Dragon when you need him?

Good point! He's always got the answers!! I feel this would be something similar to previous conversations well style wise atleast

 

[Xue Sheng]

All i got is that the 5 elements dragons are found in Chinese astrology

Dragon Five Elements: Gold, Earth, Fire, Water, and Wood Dragon

And which one you are depends on your birth year.

Nit much help i know, but its all i got

 

[CMyers0323]

All i got is that the 5 elements dragons are found in Chinese astrology

Dragon Five Elements: Gold, Earth, Fire, Water, and Wood Dragon

And which one you are depends on your birth year.

Nit much help i know, but its all i got

No worries. I've heard of this as well. Although the book seems to imply there's martial arts techniques or applications to this. Atleast I'd assume so. Similar to how other styles have variations on it. I know there's a few like the monkey has the tall, wooden, stone, etc. Then if it counts Drunken having the 8 immortals. With these from my understanding your still doing said style just different based on what immortal or monkey your working with.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No worries. I've heard of this as well. Although the book seems to imply there's martial arts techniques or applications to this. Atleast I'd assume so. Similar to how other styles have variations on it. I know there's a few like the monkey has the tall, wooden, stone, etc. Then if it counts Drunken having the 8 immortals. With these from my understanding your still doing said style just different based on what immortal or monkey your working with.

A lot of Chinese style use the 5 elements, but they tend to all be different. I did xingyiquan 5 elements and then the Taijiquan i do deals with the 5 elements but they deal with them differently and neither has the gold element. They just call it metal

 

[TaiChiTJ]

I've had this book for some time and finally decided to give it a quick look through. When I started reading the Dragon section they mention 5 element dragons. But there isn't any further mention about them and the relation to either theory or kung fu/techniques and such. Anyone have any suggestions or know where I can read more about the elemental dragons

I can't upload a picture of the cover for some reason but it's "Authentic Five Animals Style Hasayfu Hung Kuen" by Wing Lam

The book does not give illustrations of representative movements, postures and such, for the five animals ? Yikes. I always thought Tiger energy leaned toward pure muscular energy, while smaller feline energy was faster. The leopard or cheetah knows it’s no match for the power of a Tiger. But they know they are fast, very fast. The crane is peaceful, scooping up a fish when it’s hungry, and if something comes after it, it will step away with its long legs and sweep away the incoming force with its big wing. Snakes don’t want to fight either, they will get away fast, but if they feel cornered, they will coil and strike. Dragon is mythical, and my understanding is that in some way all four energies somehow come together, and are expressed, often with the final action being some sort of joint lock. That’s about all I have gathered over the years. It’s surprising a little more information was not provided.

 

[Flying Crane]

The book does not give illustrations of representative movements, postures and such, for the five animals ? Yikes. I always thought Tiger energy leaned toward pure muscular energy, while smaller feline energy was faster. The leopard or cheetah knows it’s no match for the power of a Tiger. But they know they are fast, very fast. The crane is peaceful, scooping up a fish when it’s hungry, and if something comes after it, it will step away with its long legs and sweep away the incoming force with its big wing. Snakes don’t want to fight either, they will get away fast, but if they feel cornered, they will coil and strike. Dragon is mythical, and my understanding is that in some way all four energies somehow come together, and are expressed, often with the final action being some sort of joint lock. That’s about all I have gathered over the years. It’s surprising a little more information was not provided.

I don’t feel these kinds of generalizations are accurate, or at best are only accurate in limited context. Your example of crane is a good place to start. The Tibetan crane method is very aggressive. When it fights, it takes the fight to the attacker and drives in until the job is done. Striking in Tibetan crane is very powerful and does not simply sweep away an attack, at least not without some seriously damaging follow-up. We make very little use of the “crane beak” strike with the fingers, preferring to use regular fists for the most part, although we strike with different parts of the fist. While a crane, like any animal, wants to be left alone and never simply looks for a fight, they can be quite aggressive when defending the nest and have been known to stand down water buffalo in Africa. That is one hell of an impressive accomplishment and paints a picture of an animal punching far above its weight class.

I know very little about Fujian crane, but what I’ve seen tells me it is different altogether from the Tibetan method. I have heard of an Omei crane, but the source I heard it from makes me uncertain if it is a real thing. It is possible that other methods have their own interpretation of the animal. One example is Hung Ga and its famous Fu/Hok Tiger/Crane form. Much of the crane material comes from the Tibetan method (that is historically documented), but there is stuff in there that I do not recognize. It is possible that it comes from the Fujian method, but it is also possible that it is Hung Ga’s own interpretation of the crane. I suspect that other methods that may have some crane material within them have probably made their own interpretation as well and did not adopt Tibetan of Fujian (or Omei) material. At any rate, these various interpretations of the same animal, created by different groups of people living in different parts of historical China, certainly do not comply with one unified interpretation of the behavioral/spiritual qualities of the bird that would dictate how the animal is translated into a fighting method for humans.

Your comment on Tiger is another good example. While the tiger is an extremely strong and powerful animal, I have never seen a viable martial method that suggests one should rely on raw physical strength. Such a method would be useful to a very limited group of athletic people and only for so long as they are youthful and able to keep up that strength. Strength is always useful, but every martial method I have experienced has stressed efficiency in movement and good technique to maximize effect while minimizing effort. That is the opposite of relying on raw physical strength and I suspect that any such approach would be viewed as extremely crude in China, among other more sophisticated methods.

My experience in Tibetan crane tells me that the animal was seen as a source of inspiration that could translate into meaningful and useful movement to maximize efficiency in a human martial method. It is not seen as something to copy or otherwise “become” the animal. Practice of an animal style should not be about mimicry or acting like the animal. I suspect that any such displays are a modern re-interpretation for theatrical performances and entertainment.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

I've had this book for some time and finally decided to give it a quick look through. When I started reading the Dragon section they mention 5 element dragons. But there isn't any further mention about them and the relation to either theory or kung fu/techniques and such. Anyone have any suggestions or know where I can read more about the elemental dragons

I can't upload a picture of the cover for some reason but it's "Authentic Five Animals Style Hasayfu Hung Kuen" by Wing Lam

Oh I took a look at the Hasayfu system, now a kind of subset of Hung Gar. Master Lam recommends the book you are reading as an intro.

 

[CMyers0323]

A lot of Chinese style use the 5 elements, but they tend to all be different. I did xingyiquan 5 elements and then the Taijiquan i do deals with the 5 elements but they deal with them differently and neither has the gold element. They just call it metal

I also to Xing Yi and love the 5 elements in them. Taijiquan doesn't have actual 5 element techniques like Xing Yi does do they? Or tactics?

That's true I have seen alot call it gold more recently. My Sifu who was also Native American said his family had 5 elements and instead of metal it was called stone. It seems that's the only one with variations on the name

 

[CMyers0323]

The book does not give illustrations of representative movements, postures and such, for the five animals ? Yikes. I always thought Tiger energy leaned toward pure muscular energy, while smaller feline energy was faster. The leopard or cheetah knows it’s no match for the power of a Tiger. But they know they are fast, very fast. The crane is peaceful, scooping up a fish when it’s hungry, and if something comes after it, it will step away with its long legs and sweep away the incoming force with its big wing. Snakes don’t want to fight either, they will get away fast, but if they feel cornered, they will coil and strike. Dragon is mythical, and my understanding is that in some way all four energies somehow come together, and are expressed, often with the final action being some sort of joint lock. That’s about all I have gathered over the years. It’s surprising a little more information was not provided.

They do I just was interested in the mention of Elemental dragons. I have a few 5 animal books that go over different forms. Each having a handful of animal techniques more or less.

I've heard the same for tiger where as leopard deals with the tendons I believe. That's all really cool. I've heard similar things as well. It's interesting how people are able to take that and make it into more combat related things. I think for the snake I read how there's two types poisonous and not so the non poisonous ones tend to coil and constrict their enemies. So like joint locks and the poisonous ones you relate it to nerve point strikes.

 

[CMyers0323]

I don’t feel these kinds of generalizations are accurate, or at best are only accurate in limited context. Your example of crane is a good place to start. The Tibetan crane method is very aggressive. When it fights, it takes the fight to the attacker and drives in until the job is done. Striking in Tibetan crane is very powerful and does not simply sweep away an attack, at least not without some seriously damaging follow-up. We make very little use of the “crane beak” strike with the fingers, preferring to use regular fists for the most part, although we strike with different parts of the fist. While a crane, like any animal, wants to be left alone and never simply looks for a fight, they can be quite aggressive when defending the nest and have been known to stand down water buffalo in Africa. That is one hell of an impressive accomplishment and paints a picture of an animal punching far above its weight class.

I know very little about Fujian crane, but what I’ve seen tells me it is different altogether from the Tibetan method. I have heard of an Omei crane, but the source I heard it from makes me uncertain if it is a real thing. It is possible that other methods have their own interpretation of the animal. One example is Hung Ga and its famous Fu/Hok Tiger/Crane form. Much of the crane material comes from the Tibetan method (that is historically documented), but there is stuff in there that I do not recognize. It is possible that it comes from the Fujian method, but it is also possible that it is Hung Ga’s own interpretation of the crane. I suspect that other methods that may have some crane material within them have probably made their own interpretation as well and did not adopt Tibetan of Fujian (or Omei) material. At any rate, these various interpretations of the same animal, created by different groups of people living in different parts of historical China, certainly do not comply with one unified interpretation of the behavioral/spiritual qualities of the bird that would dictate how the animal is translated into a fighting method for humans.

Your comment on Tiger is another good example. While the tiger is an extremely strong and powerful animal, I have never seen a viable martial method that suggests one should rely on raw physical strength. Such a method would be useful to a very limited group of athletic people and only for so long as they are youthful and able to keep up that strength. Strength is always useful, but every martial method I have experienced has stressed efficiency in movement and good technique to maximize effect while minimizing effort. That is the opposite of relying on raw physical strength and I suspect that any such approach would be viewed as extremely crude in China, among other more sophisticated methods.

My experience in Tibetan crane tells me that the animal was seen as a source of inspiration that could translate into meaningful and useful movement to maximize efficiency in a human martial method. It is not seen as something to copy or otherwise “become” the animal. Practice of an animal style should not be about mimicry or acting like the animal. I suspect that any such displays are a modern re-interpretation for theatrical performances and entertainment.

Wow that's impressive! Is Tibetan White Crane more external than the other styles? I've seen both more internal Tai Chi like Crane then also I think southern and more "hard style"

It makes sense and is suprising for the tiger I suppose that's why like Hung Gar they usually have very strong people or that the style requires it more or less. Where other styles can be done by people without superior strength.

 

[marvin8]

I've had this book for some time and finally decided to give it a quick look through. When I started reading the Dragon section they mention 5 element dragons. But there isn't any further mention about them and the relation to either theory or kung fu/techniques and such. Anyone have any suggestions or know where I can read more about the elemental dragons

I can't upload a picture of the cover for some reason but it's "Authentic Five Animals Style Hasayfu Hung Kuen" by Wing Lam

Google search...

shaolingurukul
Hung Kuen 5 Element Section from Sap Ying Kuen

The form of the five animals and five elements (elements). It bridges the Tit Sin Kuen form (the iron rope form) and the other forms. Its first part contains the techniques of hard nei gong to control the flow of Chi energy, the Kiu Sau (bridges) exercise and shows the specificity of dragon techniques.

The following sequences of the form introduces the techniques of the five elements (metal, water, wood, earth and fire) from South Siu Lum. The purpose of using the five elements is to analyze and understand their creative and destructive nature.

 

[CMyers0323]

Oh I took a look at the Hasayfu system, now a kind of subset of Hung Gar. Master Lam recommends the book you are reading as an intro.

That's pretty cool. Have you ever seen any further mention of the Elemental dragons?

 

[CMyers0323]

Google search...

shaolingurukul
Hung Kuen 5 Element Section from Sap Ying Kuen

The form of the five animals and five elements (elements). It bridges the Tit Sin Kuen form (the iron rope form) and the other forms. Its first part contains the techniques of hard nei gong to control the flow of Chi energy, the Kiu Sau (bridges) exercise and shows the specificity of dragon techniques.

The following sequences of the form introduces the techniques of the five elements (metal, water, wood, earth and fire) from South Siu Lum. The purpose of using the five elements is to analyze and understand their creative and destructive nature.

Thanks i just watched the first one. I've seen similar before! These versions of the 5 Elemental techniques were the second ones I found after the usual Xing Yi ones. I wondered if other styles have ones as well. My Sifu did teach me a Wing Chun form and I think the beginning has 5 element techniques in it.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

That's pretty cool. Have you ever seen any further mention of the Elemental dragons?

Nope but sounds like you have enough resources to achieve Kung fu in it !!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Dragon techniques is a nutshell are going to be grabbing techniques. That take a similar shape as if you are grabbing your own forearm. The other part of dragon is whipping motion. Strikes that whip follow the dragon concepts.

 

[Flying Crane]

Wow that's impressive! Is Tibetan White Crane more external than the other styles? I've seen both more internal Tai Chi like Crane then also I think southern and more "hard style"

It makes sense and is suprising for the tiger I suppose that's why like Hung Gar they usually have very strong people or that the style requires it more or less. Where other styles can be done by people without superior strength.

I don’t really care for the internal/external classification as I do not believe it represents an accurate distinction. Tibetan crane has a set called Needle in Cotton that is quite long and is done slowly and relaxed, somewhat similar to Taiji. It is sometimes called Tibetan crane’s taiji. But it is not Taiji and I do not believe it is a similar training. It is slow and methodical, teaching one to pay attention to the minor details. Full disclosure: I have not learned the set but I have seen my Sifu and the senior disciples do it many times.

Tibetan crane is a long arm method and is very physical and athletic. It is based on a simple concept of full body unification for generation of maximum power and we have a unique method for developing that trait.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also to Xing Yi and love the 5 elements in them. Taijiquan doesn't have actual 5 element techniques like Xing Yi does do they? Or tactics?

That's true I have seen alot call it gold more recently. My Sifu who was also Native American said his family had 5 elements and instead of metal it was called stone. It seems that's the only one with variations on the name

Taijiquan in Tung Ying Chieh lineage, my Yang style lineage applies the 5 elements to the 13 postures

 

[Flying Crane]

It makes sense and is suprising for the tiger I suppose that's why like Hung Gar they usually have very strong people or that the style requires it more or less. Where other styles can be done by people without superior strength.

I guess I challenge the notion that Hung Ga or a direct tiger method like Fu Jow Pai is for strong people or that its practitioners have a higher percentage of strong people. If the method requires a level of strength above the general population, then in my opinion it would be a poorly designed system. Proper practice of the method should develop one’s strength and fitness and overall health as a side benefit and that would help to improve one’s ability, but that would not be unique to Hung Ga. It is important to understand that I am not implying that becoming stronger enables you to “muscle” through the techniques and force them to work. No martial method should rely on strength to force successful technical application, even though it is often possible to get things to work in that way. However, when technical skill is high and efficient application is understood, then overall physical strength and athleticism are helpful. One’s overall abilities become more robust, without directly muscling and forcing the application to happen.