Attacking the Guard

[windwalker099]

I think his comments are based on what he may see in forms or in training. Granted it's really difficult to see Hung Ga sparring.

Different people have different experiences.

Had a friend who practiced Hung Gar, trained in the 'iron wire' set—sparring with him was like hitting a rock. From what I’ve seen of Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut, their long-arm techniques are executed from a different stance, the stepping, similar to the stepping in your clips.

Rong Dong / Mike Staples
using crane, and gorilla or ape..aspects.
Tibetan White Crane, the horse used and stepping seems to be very different
from most other CMA I've seen.

Based off of whats called triangle in and out
using the 45° horse

practiced as shown at first with the hands on the waist..


TWC a sister style of Lama hop gar... a little different based off of the same root style.

Mike, at the time was exploring using "boxing" as a kind of short arm addition to the syllabus.

Note: My training in Tibetan White Crane (TWC) was limited, focused primarily on striking. Did a lot of 'testing' against other stylists in making it functional, there are other aspects, didn’t get a chance to explore.
For those who teach or have it as their main practice, feel free to correct, or fill in gaps as needed...
Appreciated


@ Kung Fu Wang

Reminds me of your "Rhino" guard

David Ross,
Chan Tai San Lion’s Roar Lama Pai Kung Fu

 

[windwalker099]

If you don't want to exchange punches with your opponent, you should control/disable your opponent's arm ASAP.

My method was to kill "disable" the arm or leg,,,,using TWC
Never liked controlling as done in n-mantis, through grabbing,

N-Mantis / TWC


One of my teachers students, plum flower mantis in Korea,...Mr Lee

Taiji uses whats called "sticking" combined with balance disrupting instead of grabbing...

 

[windwalker099]

In other words, when I grab my opponent's wrist, I do want him to respond so I can take advantage on. My goal is not on his wrist but on something else.

Variations

 

[JowGaWolf]

My comment on his overhand is his overhand doesn't change into a grab/pull.

That same movement can be used to pull the punching arm. It just depends on where your arms lands when you do the technique. In Jow Ga the pulling opens up the opponent, for the uppercut and a clinch would most likely occur after the upper cut. The reason why the clinch doesn't occur after the overhand is because of what the over hand is targeting. It main target is the back of the head. If someone lands it then there may not be any need to clinch. But you have to be committed to "smashing energy" and not "Wrapping energy."

For example, in order for the "back fist, overhand, uppercut" combo to make sense,

The back fist does a few things at the same time.
1. Fills the punching lane
2. Clears any linear punches that are going in.
3. Sends a strike, If your opponent ducks or move to your inside then you can hit them with that back fist.
4. The back fist can strike and knock down a guard.
5. The back fist can be extended to target head or initiate a wrapping of the arm.
6. Assists in powering the overhand.
7. used a a distractive technique.

The type of back fist being used here is not the same as the bruce lee backfist. The power for this backfist doesn't come from snapping. It comes from whipping and sinking. It requires engagement body core to provide it structure and strength.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However, hand hand trapping techqniues seems to be mostly ideal when following up with a head strike, and since we don't to that sparring in our style, it's not so much training.

You can probably do a good job with it if they try to control your arms as Kung Fu wang posted when he grabbed his students lead guard.

Different people have different experiences.

We can only go on and talk about what we experience. Which is always better than guessing.

From what I’ve seen of Hung Gar and Choy Lee Fut, their long-arm techniques are executed from a different stance

Is this what you see in form or sparring. If this is based on sparring then I would go with that. If it's based on form then I would use caution. The forms often miss key parts needed to make the technique effective. My guess is that this is because there are some things we can only learn through sparring. So if the teacher didn't use the techniques in sparring, then they make changes to form thinking that it's a small change but in reality, that small change has a big effect. As for the stance, there will be a limited number of stances that work with these techniques. If you use the wrong rooting, then the punch will throw you off balance or you'll only be able to throw one of these punches like MMA. They usually throw the punch and recover. If you have the most stable stance then you should be able throw this punch and then another.



As for that scissor sweep. "White crane splashes water"

It is done exactly as it's done in the form.

There is no need to hold your opponent's leg in order for it to work. The swinging arm works more of a counter balance to the sweep so that your sweep will have power. The arm has to swing in front of your body so it really doesn't matterwhere. There's no specific place you have to aim for so long as your arm swing has enough force to swing through.

This is Jow Ga version of that sweep. The thing to take note of are the position of the sweeping leg and the swinging arm which is the same as the illustration and the video. It didn't require me to control an arm or a kick.

This is the begining of the sweep. He was standing on 2 legs, my foot hooks behind his leg. As shown in the illustration

Based on me using this technique. The accurate parts of this drawing is the first part and the last part. Specifically the hooking of the sweeping foot and the lifting of the foot. The one key part that I think it does not and cannot highlight is that in the sweep you do not lift your leg. Your leg will rise on it's own with the sweep. The most important parts is the movement of the sweep across the body and the swinging of the arm arcoss the body.

There are variaties of how this sweep can be used, but in terms of the form and the illustration, capturing a kick is not required for this technique to work.

 

[windwalker099]

Is this what you see in form or sparring. If this is based on sparring then I would go with that.

Back in the day, had a friend who practiced Hung Gar. IME, sparring, the only way to truly learn about others—and yourself.

Forms

View forms as tools...some might need more tools then others to do the same things.
There is a saying "less is more"

 

[Tigerwarrior]

One of my favorite movements within Tibetan White Crane is to directly take out the lead arm. Either directly or using what was called "burning hand" The strike would numb out the opponents arm causing them to drop it...Or stop everything, not being able to continue.

The footwork is a bit different but follows the same concept.

Taiji is similar in that any point touched becomes the point where force is issued, affecting the whole body.
No need to target the body directly.

Tibetan burning palm is the real deal. I used to wonder if it was legit. You might not see it at first. One guy did a video about it a while ago. You could literally see it burning his arm from the inside. It didn't happen instantly but took about 10 seconds and the guy who got hit with it couldn't keep his guard up anymore.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

A few months ago, there was a discussion about striking arms. I mentioned that Jow Ga trains to strike the arms. Here's an example. Of what that looks like. This is just one of the many ways we strike arms.

I've seen this before in other long fist systems. Actually heard of guys conditioning their forearms just for this and a few other strikes. I like it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The forms often miss key parts needed to make the technique effective.

Reason 1. As forms became less combat oriented and more performance oriented, key parts needed for effective application faded away.

Reason 2. Key parts were not included by design, leaving them for the instructor to add in. Forms were not intended to teach, merely to practice. Teaching was direct from master to student.

The most important parts is the movement of the sweep across the body and the swinging of the arm arcoss the body.

This is somewhat similar to a technique in Okinawan naihanchi kata (but done a little tighter in than this illustration), even though many practitioners do not recognize this is a key bunkai.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Reason 2. Key parts were not included by design, leaving them for the instructor to add in. Forms were not intended to teach, merely to practice. Teaching was direct from master to student.

I think the form creator intentionally tried to hide information. This way when he demonstrated his form in public, people will not steal his information.

For example, both "circular dragging" and "counter to circular dragging" have never been recorded in any forms that I know.

 

[marvin8]

I see it this way too when I use Jow Ga. I terms of action:
A starts planned action
B responds to A's action

I always want B's reaction to be something other than an attack. Anything that causes him to recalibrate or think is a plus. Brain freezing up is a bonus because at that point he doesn't know how to respond and basically turns into a "Demo Partner" at that point.

That is what I tried to explain. You make a safe, non-committed move to get the opponent to react. When the opponent moves out of position, you change and enter the fight zone.

In the video I posted showing attacking the guard, if Jow Ga moves straight then the risk of getting hit with a counter but when Jow Ga moves off center that movement doesn't trigger thecounterattackk response as easily. If I'm attacking directly then I need to look for a counter. If I'm attacking at an angle, then I'm trying to avoid triggering the counter.

This shows how that counter gets triggered.

This is a excellent example of the "stealing step" that I was talking about + plus taking an angle instead of going straight. This would be text book Jow Ga concept here. Clip set at ffighter

However, the opponent can follow, move and/or counter you from the on guard position as you attempt to "move off center." In your video, Rojo...

1. from outside range, steps forward, controls Galvan's hands and feints a jab.
2. as Galvan reacts by shuffling backwards (double weighted), Rojo changes by shuffle stepping forward to the right creating an angle and throws the overhand right KOing Galvan.

Note that Rojo's first contact is the overhand right. There is no reason to "attack the guard" when he already has an advantageous position.

https://imgur.com/cThbTBN

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've seen this before in other long fist systems. Actually heard of guys conditioning their forearms just for this and a few other strikes. I like it.

This is true. When you treat your arm like a wooden stick then conditioning is a big plus

However, the opponent can follow, move and/or counter you from the on guard position as you attempt to "move off center."

This is why you throw something in the "punch lane" to occupy space and to give yourself a little more time to move off center. I'm not saying that the technique can be countered and one day I may share that counter. But the technique of how TMA uses that technique take those things into consideration and shape the technique to meet those concerns. You have to remember:
1. The big wheel punches take longer to arrive
2. In this situation Linear beat circular
3. TMA doesn't like to do a lot of head movement so when we slip punches we use our feet to do it.
4. long fist techniques in generally have big gaps and openings in the strikes, which the practitioner needs to understand and know better than the person trying to hit them.
5. Gaps in the office can be used as bait while striking.

I put it this way. No one is going to use these big punches without being aware of the gaps.

However, the opponent can follow, move and/or counter you from the on guard position as you attempt to "move off center." In your video, Rojo...

1. from outside range, steps forward, controls Galvan's hands and feints a jab.
2. as Galvan reacts by shuffling backwards (double weighted), Rojo changes by shuffle stepping forward to the right creating an angle and throws the overhand right KOing Galvan.

Note that Rojo's first contact is the overhand right. There is no reason to "attack the guard" when he already has an advantageous position.

I read it a little different.
1. He starts within striking range targeting the lead guard. This goes back to what I often say about addressing the lead hand. By targeting that lead hand he keeps the hand and his opponent's mind occupied. The reason I say that he strikes the guard is because he doesn't extend that jab deeper than the guard.

2. Rojo doesn't change his shuffling. His primary goal was to step off at an angle. Like I was saying before, this technique is one where you want to step at a 45 degree angle. So what he does is what I would consider to be text book footwork for this type of punch.

Rojo first contact was to strike the guard. His left hand never went beyond the range of his opponents guard. If your opponet is occupied with "Defend" then he's not thinking "Attack" at the same moment he's thinking defend. He's also sneaking step in while he does it. The angle that he takes keeps his opponent from running away.

This is a natural gap in long fist. If you don't address the lead hand then you run a high risk of getting jabbed hard in the face. This is also why moving off center is a must for this technique. Go straight forward with this technique and you'll eat eat a punch. The only way to keep from eat a punch in this position is to fill the punching lane and step off center.

I took a closer look. He didn't just luck out on this punch he had TMA training probably from the Choy Li Fut school or from Hung Ga. I'm leaning more towards Choy Li Fut. The way that his fist lands on the face is the fist formation used in those styles and it targets the right place on the head. The punch is not thrown so that the forces lands in front of him it's thrown so the force lands on the side. His left fist shows a TMA with is thumb to the outside of the fist and not wrapped around the fist.

His approach was basically the same as this one. With the biggest difference being that he took the 45-degree angle. I'm not sure how old you are but if you ever get a chance try to swing a few of these punches.

 

[marvin8]

This is true. When you treat your arm like a wooden stick then conditioning is a big plus

This is why you throw something in the "punch lane" to occupy space and to give yourself a little more time to move off center. I'm not saying that the technique can be countered and one day I may share that counter. But the technique of how TMA uses that technique take those things into consideration and shape the technique to meet those concerns. You have to remember:
1. The big wheel punches take longer to arrive
2. In this situation Linear beat circular
3. TMA doesn't like to do a lot of head movement so when we slip punches we use our feet to do it.
4. long fist techniques in generally have big gaps and openings in the strikes, which the practitioner needs to understand and know better than the person trying to hit them.
5. Gaps in the office can be used as bait while striking.

I put it this way. No one is going to use these big punches without being aware of the gaps.

Let's start by only discussing my two steps and GIF which you commented on. Your clips show that Rojo winds up, drops his arm behind himself then reaches with his overhand. So, it's just as vulnerable.

I read it a little different.
1. He starts within striking range targeting the lead guard. This goes back to what I often say about addressing the lead hand. By targeting that lead hand he keeps the hand and his opponent's mind occupied. The reason I say that he strikes the guard is because he doesn't extend that jab deeper than the guard...

Rojo first contact was to strike the guard. His left hand never went beyond the range of his opponents guard. If your opponet is occupied with "Defend" then he's not thinking "Attack" at the same moment he's thinking defend. He's also sneaking step in while he does it. The angle that he takes keeps his opponent from running away.

No, Rojo starts from outside range as seen in the GIF. He does not strike the guard. Rojo controls the space by occupying the punching lanes. Then, he feints a jab. Galavan contacts Rojo's jab feint trying to parry it down while stepping backwards. This occupies Galavan's mind and body. As he does this, Rojo shuffles forward to the right and lands the overhand.

https://imgur.com/QMGH0fb

2. Rojo doesn't change his shuffling. His primary goal was to step off at an angle. Like I was saying before, this technique is one where you want to step at a 45 degree angle. So what he does is what I would consider to be text book footwork for this type of punch.

You are misunderstanding me. Rojo steps forward creating momentum as Galavan's lead foot is in the air (double weighted). Then, he takes a bigger shuffle step forward and to the right creating an angle (changes). Rojo's forward steps overcomes Galavan's smaller shuffle step backwards.

Again, There is no reason to "attack the guard" when he already has an advantageous position. Rojo's process of setting up the overhand and timing is different than stepping at an angle striking the guard or stepping forward and attempting to grab the opponent's wrist.

I took a closer look. He didn't just luck out on this punch he had TMA training probably from the Choy Li Fut school or from Hung Ga. I'm leaning more towards Choy Li Fut. The way that his fist lands on the face is the fist formation used in those styles and it targets the right place on the head. The punch is not thrown so that the forces lands in front of him it's thrown so the force lands on the side. His left fist shows a TMA with is thumb to the outside of the fist and not wrapped around the fist.

View attachment 31983

I've posted several clips of similar overhands from non-Choy Li Fut people. Some techniques are going to have similarities.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One way to attack the close guard - if you want to keep your arms close to your head, I'll help your arms to close to your head more than you want to.

 

[marvin8]

His approach was basically the same as this one. With the biggest difference being that he took the 45-degree angle. I'm not sure how old you are but if you ever get a chance try to swing a few of these punches.

No, the approach and positions are different.

In the "attacking the guard" drill, the overhand starts when the opponent's front foot is planted and in a position to move or counter.

In the Rojo fight, the overhand starts when the opponent's front foot is in the air and unable to move or counter.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Let's start by only discussing my two steps and GIF which you commented on. Your clips show that Rojo winds up, drops his arm behind himself then reaches with his overhand. So, it's just as vulnerable.


No, Rojo starts from outside range as seen in the GIF. He does not strike the guard. Rojo controls the space by occupying the punching lanes. Then, he feints a jab. Galavan contacts Rojo's jab feint trying to parry it down while stepping backwards. This occupies Galavan's mind and body. As he does this, Rojo shuffles forward to the right and lands the overhand.

https://imgur.com/QMGH0fb

You are misunderstanding me. Rojo steps forward creating momentum as Galavan's lead foot is in the air (double weighted). Then, he takes a bigger shuffle step forward and to the right creating an angle (changes). Rojo's forward steps overcomes Galavan's smaller shuffle step backwards.

Again, There is no reason to "attack the guard" when he already has an advantageous position. Rojo's process of setting up the overhand and timing is different than stepping at an angle striking the guard or stepping forward and attempting to grab the opponent's wrist.


I've posted several clips of similar overhands from non-Choy Li Fut people. Some techniques are going to have similarities.

In Jow Ga this is what we call "attacking the guard" when our strike targets the guard and doesn't try to go beyond the guar then we are attacking the guard. We can hit the hand soft or we hit it hard. In this screenshot the target is not the face it's the guard, which is why neither of the jabs try to penetrate beyond the guard. The Guard is the Target.

In the "attacking the guard" drill, the overhand starts when the opponent's front foot is planted and in a position to move or counter.

This doesn't matter in terms of the technique. I can show you examples of where the front foot was planted, and people still get hit with this. To me, what you are saying is that a jab is different because a person is moving backwards and not staying still. A Jab is a Jab regardless of what my opponent's footwork is, or how I enter with a jab. If I move right and jab it's still a jab, if I step forward with a jab, it's still a jab. If I stand still and jab, it's still a jab.

When you get hit with it, you get hit with it.

 

[Holmejr]

Feel free to go for that option if you think you can sneak a hook in. Just based on how I throw these punches it's not always an overhand strike. Sometimes that lead hand turns into hook sometimes it's an elbow. In the video above, he takes a linear drive. In application you want to step off at a 45-degree angle. Unless the intention is to drive the person backwards.

I wouldn't do it. If they step 45 degrees in the opposite direction of the incoming punch, then you'll get nailed while trying to hit something that is no longer there. There are just too many different types of strikes that can come off that second punch to risk something like that. The assumption is that the 2nd strike would be an overhand and it's not always an overhand.

These movements seem pretty extreme with a couple of these movements actually throwing the “hitter” off balance. In FMA, since we work with angles of attack, that technique would be met quite aggressively to the inside which is our desire or if it passed to the outside, which is okay too. Also in many forms of FMA they have what they call “defang the snake” which is an outside technique where the defender meets the incoming slash at the hand/wrist or arm. Your attack on the hand/arm would be similar to a blade attack following the same line, accept the blade moves much faster than the open hand. I would consider this technique dangerous if fighting a seasoned fighter. On the streets against an unsuspecting emotional perp, it might work, especially if you don’t show your cards to soon. I think they used to call these “heymakers”.

 

[windwalker099]

I would consider this technique dangerous if fighting a seasoned fighter. On the streets against an unsuspecting emotional perp, it might work, especially if you don’t show your cards to soon. I think they used to call these “heymakers”.

Interesting, a common reaction for those not having trained to develop the hands, coordinated with the foot work that makes it work,

It does take a while to develop the timing, and spatial awareness to understand the different ranges...or zones

 

[Holmejr]

Interesting, a common reaction for those not having trained to develop the hands, coordinated with the foot work that makes it work,

It does take a while to develop the timing, and spatial awareness to understand the different ranges...or zones

Not having enough training or trained well? lol. Can it be both. If you know FMA with it’s “gunting” “defang the snake” type techniques and it’s many ranges of training, you probably would not have responded that way. Also, I realize that your video is just a sliver of the whole art. Just speaking about this single technique.

 

[windwalker099]

Not having enough training or trained well? lol. Can it be both. If you know FMA with it’s “gunting” “defang the snake” type techniques and it’s many ranges of training, you probably would not have responded that way. Also, I realize that your video is just a sliver of the whole art. Just speaking about this single technique.

Am aware and have seen live demos of it in use long ago...
Thinking the group was under Angel Cabales, a famous instructor at the time..
could be wrong

They did a stepping drill, called the triangle,
if memory serves me.... quite interesting.

Not something I found interesting at the time,
could appreciate its complexities, and usage..