Attacking Mace & Evading the Storm

[Handsword]

I would like to get some opinions on what people see as the fundamental differences between these two techniques (ie. why are 2 separate techniques needed for such similar movements?).

Each technique deals with a different type of attack, although I don't think this alone justifies separate techniques, as every technique can apply to a different ideal attack (eg. Delayed Sword vs a lapel grab or straight punch).

These two techniques could be included in the syllabus to specifically make the point that a similar defence can apply to different types of attacks, but I don't think that's it.

Attacking Mace involves a backwards step, whereas Evading the Storm steps forward, although once again, many techniques could remain the same if the direction of the first step was changed. For example, Attacking Mace would not need much adjustment if you stepped forward with your left instead of back with your right.

Evading the Storm doesn't move in a unique initial way for a baton technique, as Obstructing the Storm also moves to the outside of an overhead attack.

So what do you see as the need for these two techniques when the core movements are so similar?

 

[headkick]

Originally posted by Handsword
I would like to get some opinions on what people see as the fundamental differences between these two techniques (ie. why are 2 separate techniques needed for such similar movements?).

Each technique deals with a different type of attack, although I don't think this alone justifies separate techniques, as every technique can apply to a different ideal attack (eg. Delayed Sword vs a lapel grab or straight punch).

Apply the equation formula to the yellow techniques and you'll come up with all of the techniques.

These two techniques could be included in the syllabus to specifically make the point that a similar defence can apply to different types of attacks, but I don't think that's it.

Attacking Mace involves a backwards step, whereas Evading the Storm steps forward, although once again, many techniques could remain the same if the direction of the first step was changed. For example, Attacking Mace would not need much adjustment if you stepped forward with your left instead of back with your right.

I don't agree that attacking mace just moves forward. You move offline and slightly forward. The extended outward block on the upward diagonal doesn't lend itself to stepping right into an overhead club attack. Likewise, stepping straight back against a swining club wouldn't be advisable. I personally would rather strike your arm than your club.

There are a multitude of defenses against a right step through punch of which attacking mace is only one. How many do you need? What are each of them showing you? Is what they're showing you valuable? I think so.

Evading the Storm doesn't move in a unique initial way for a baton technique, as Obstructing the Storm also moves to the outside of an overhead attack.

You must do those different than I do. For me they are quite different.

So what do you see as the need for these two techniques when the core movements are so similar?

The core movements are duplicated throughout the entire system. How many techinques step forward into a left neutral bow with a left inward block?

Why have Five Swords when Delayed Sword is there?

It's a really good question you ask and finding the answers, particularly on the mat, is what Kenpo is all about, for me at least.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Handsword
I would like to get some opinions on what people see as the fundamental differences between these two techniques (ie. why are 2 separate techniques needed for such similar movements?).

Each technique deals with a different type of attack, although I don't think this alone justifies separate techniques, as every technique can apply to a different ideal attack (eg. Delayed Sword vs a lapel grab or straight punch).

These two techniques could be included in the syllabus to specifically make the point that a similar defence can apply to different types of attacks, but I don't think that's it.

Attacking Mace involves a backwards step, whereas Evading the Storm steps forward, although once again, many techniques could remain the same if the direction of the first step was changed. For example, Attacking Mace would not need much adjustment if you stepped forward with your left instead of back with your right.

Evading the Storm doesn't move in a unique initial way for a baton technique, as Obstructing the Storm also moves to the outside of an overhead attack.

So what do you see as the need for these two techniques when the core movements are so similar?

How are we supposed to have this discussion unless you write out how you execute the techniques? Not everyone does them exactly the same way. If you choose to do so highlight some of the principle you are using in various places of the techniques.

 

[Handsword]

I am refering specifically to the capture of the opponent's right wrist as you deliver a right roundhouse kick to the opponent's groin with the ball of the foot. This is then followed by planting the right foot forward into a right forward bow stance while delivering a left punch to the opponent's right ribcage/kidney as you anchor their arm down and out to cancel their height and width.

Looking at a number of descriptions of how these techniques are performed on the net, I can see slight variations (eg. not capturing the wrist), but nothing significantly different.

I see similar applications in both techniques of reverse motion (while capturing the wrist to aid the kick) and a height check via a leg buckle. Of course there are other principles involved (the 3 power principles etc), but these are emphasised elsewhere in a Kenpo syllabus.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Handsword
I am refering specifically to the capture of the opponent's right wrist as you deliver a right roundhouse kick to the opponent's groin with the ball of the foot. This is then followed by planting the right foot forward into a right forward bow stance while delivering a left punch to the opponent's right ribcage/kidney as you anchor their arm down and out to cancel their height and width.

Looking at a number of descriptions of how these techniques are performed on the net, I can see slight variations (eg. not capturing the wrist), but nothing significantly different.

I see similar applications in both techniques of reverse motion (while capturing the wrist to aid the kick) and a height check via a leg buckle. Of course there are other principles involved (the 3 power principles etc), but these are emphasised elsewhere in a Kenpo syllabus.

The dynamics of the 2 attacks are completely different. Only a superficial asthetic understanding of the 2 techniques makes them appear to be similar.

That grab of the wrist of a bludeogn wielding arm is a classic example of the uninitiated "hypothetical. " To some it may sound like a good idea, but in reality it is not. Additionally stepping forward on the assault in "evading" would not be a good idea as well. Not functional for a variety of reasons.

 

[Handsword]

Originally posted by Doc
The dynamics of the 2 attacks are completely different. Only a superficial asthetic understanding of the 2 techniques makes them appear to be similar.

The similarity I see in the two attacks is that they both follow the same line of attack (using one of the lines from the universal pattern on an overhead view) - from 12 to 6 o'clock.

For this reason I see that Attacking Mace could be applied to any hand attack along this line, such as a straight punch/push/attempted grab, an overhead weapon/punch, or even an uppercut (not ideal but possible). These attacks would require different initial blocks, however the rest of the technique could flow the same. I'm yet to be convinced that Evading the Storm is not just an application of this as many of the 'answers' above are in the form of unanswered questions (no disrespect intended).

That grab of the wrist of a bludeogn wielding arm is a classic example of the uninitiated "hypothetical. " To some it may sound like a good idea, but in reality it is not. Additionally stepping forward on the assault in "evading" would not be a good idea as well. Not functional for a variety of reasons. [/B]

I usually try to grab the wrist of any weapon-wielding hand as it is the most likely method of attack from an armed opponent (due to 'weapons fixation') and probably the most dangerous. Sometimes I use a contouring grab where the thumb is tucked in (I think I've heard this referred to as a 'monkey hand'), but usually I grab with the thumb as well (like holding a glass) to close off the circle (not always possible for people with small hands or attackers with big wrists).

I've heard arguements both ways for which type of grab should be used in general. But in this case, as long as it can pull the attackers arm down and outward after the kick, then it serves it purpose of width and height cancellation.

In regards to the forward step, perhaps I should have clarified that this is off the line of attack (eg. to 11 o'clock) and not to 12 as it seems to have been assumed. The 'Chinese fan principle' (move the target first) is used by stepping 'forward' and off the line in Evading and backwards and out of range in Attacking Mace.

 

[Brother John]

In the AKKI (which I belong to, if ya didn't know) these two techniques are not really so similar in execution.
...but I'm interested to read some of my fellow kenpoist's responses.
Your Brother
John