Asking to Test
- Thread starter MBuzzy
- Start date
OP
OP
That is exactly how I was trained and how I feel, but I have heard of schools who don't mind and I personally heard someone ask to test recently...and not just to test, but to skip a rank. I was floored - I was always taught that it is disrespectful to ask, let alone ask to skip. Just wondering how widespread that is.
I know alot of schools allow such a thing but not me I am a veteran of not asking but instead say what do I need to work on.
14 Kempo
Grandmaster
We're the same, you do not ask for rank. But if I have a student ask, I might just take him/her up on it and it I can guarantee that if they get rank, they will have earned it, cause it will be that much tougher than the norm. Skipping ranks is not the norm, but I believe it can be done. Usually it is that I have not held a test in a timely manner and have instead moved the individual ahead to keep them progressing. It is not their fault if they are ready for rank and I am not holding a test. I am not going to stop making sure that they are getting value for thier dollar. Now, skipping rank is more common at the beginning ranks, it should not and does not normally happen beyond the third level.
OP
OP
That's an interesting dimension that you addressed....
What should you do if you are asked?
I was brought up in the area when one never asked to test. If someone did they usually regretted it by the time the test was over.
Now I have forgot how long a student was in rank before and been reminded by one of my sons that so and so had been at the same rank for a long period of time. That made me watch the person with a critical eye the next few lessons. I might after watching them for a day or so test them or I might give them the next rank having in my mind tested them without them feeling the pressure of a test, but they would have had to show me that they not only knew the material but where able to pass it on.
Now I have forgot how long a student was in rank before and been reminded by one of my sons that so and so had been at the same rank for a long period of time. That made me watch the person with a critical eye the next few lessons. I might after watching them for a day or so test them or I might give them the next rank having in my mind tested them without them feeling the pressure of a test, but they would have had to show me that they not only knew the material but where able to pass it on.
If I'm asked, I will discuss it with the student and make my decision based on that discussion. I did have one student ask ans was very insistent. He just couldn't accept that he wasn't ready, so I tested him and he failed. He stuck around long enough to get the rank he was trying for and left.
rick_tsdmdk
Yellow Belt
I don't see the big deal about asking to test - isn't martial arts about confidence and the chance to prove to yourself that you have achieved something?
I put out a test list a couple of weeks before the test, and if a student isn't on it and they feel they should be, they can ask me about it. If I feel they flat out are not ready at all, I just tell them. If they can make a case that thye have all the requirements down pat and are ready to go, occassionally I will let them go ahead and test.
I put out a test list a couple of weeks before the test, and if a student isn't on it and they feel they should be, they can ask me about it. If I feel they flat out are not ready at all, I just tell them. If they can make a case that thye have all the requirements down pat and are ready to go, occassionally I will let them go ahead and test.
OP
OP
So will their test be any different from the other students? Will you look at them differently since they "self selected?"
I do know a couple of instructors that put a sing up sheet out for those that feel they want to test. Of course most of them pass and the instructor collects the test fee but still the idea is one that has some merit
I like it when a student asks to test. This gives me an idea on how well they are self evaluating their skills. That skill is VERY important after chodan, so the more you can help a student develop that, the better.
When a student asks me to test, I ask them how they know they are ready. If they can demonstrate why and say the right things, then I may consider it.
As for skipping ranks...under my teacher, I skipped ranks twice during testing cycles. This was because I had so much previous training. I already knew a lot of the material and forms from shotokan and I worked hard on them. In a 10 gup system this is more possible. In my dojang, we only have belts, no stripes. With four belts, it makes it really hard to skip ranks. Probably impossible, unless you had training similiar to what I offer.
When a student asks me to test, I ask them how they know they are ready. If they can demonstrate why and say the right things, then I may consider it.
As for skipping ranks...under my teacher, I skipped ranks twice during testing cycles. This was because I had so much previous training. I already knew a lot of the material and forms from shotokan and I worked hard on them. In a 10 gup system this is more possible. In my dojang, we only have belts, no stripes. With four belts, it makes it really hard to skip ranks. Probably impossible, unless you had training similiar to what I offer.
Given how small our dojang is (four students is our current Adult class, with two absent right now), the basic policy is "You'll test when I decide that you're ready." I'm still new to the martial arts, and trust my instructor to decide if I'm ready or not. The only time I've asked was a week after he mentioned me testing soon, and all I did was ask if he had set up a time for it yet. Master Schmitt (ATKI founder) will actually chew out instructors if they throw their students into tests too soon.
I've always tested when my instructor told me to, and I do the same thing with my students. That's the way I've always done it. The few students who have asked me to test (or have asked if they are testing with the rest of the class) were, invariably, not ready - and were also, invariably, much more confident of their skills than they should have been.
When I clear a student to test, is it because s/he is able to pass the test - but there are no guarantees. I've had students fail tests because they didn't try - they showed up, walked through their requirements, and didn't understand why they failed. Interestingly, those are the type of student most likely to ask to test - actually, they're the ones most likely to tell me when they're ready to test - and as I said, they're the most likely to be unready.
It can happen. It's pretty rare - if it happened regularly, then it would mean that there was something wrong with the curriculum, and either a belt rank needed to be removed, or more things added.
That's the way I do it too.
Testing is completely at the instructor's discretion. It is not up to the student to decide if he or she is ready, it is my decision. If a student asks to test, or says they think they're ready, I would politely but firmly tell them that is my decision to make.
As for skipping ranks, that is up to judges who officiate at testings. I personally am not a fan of it as it encourages big egos and arrogance. A friend of mine did that and he never missed a chance to remind us that he did.
As for skipping ranks, that is up to judges who officiate at testings. I personally am not a fan of it as it encourages big egos and arrogance. A friend of mine did that and he never missed a chance to remind us that he did.
OP
OP
I have known people who firmly believe that a test is decided by the first Choonbee. You can tell from that first movement whether the student is there, focused, ready, confident and mentally prepared. Spend enough time testing people and a single choonbee can probably tell you on test day if they know all of their requirements or not.
Oh yes... I know people who can do that too, who have determined by the end of Chon-Ji (the first pattern, learned by white belts), at the latest, if students are going to pass or not, based on how they perform that pattern and how their concentration and mindset manifest in that performance.
JoelD
Green Belt
It's not a written rule, but everyone in our dojang knows that asking "When can i test" is a no-no. Being in the same org. as mBuzzy i would have also been floored had i heard someone in my dojang have the audacity to ask that question. It's just disrespectful. I feel that my Sa Bom is the authority on when it's time to test. When i attain her rank and own my own studio (if ever) then i will decide testing times in my dojang. i feel the dojang is NOT a democratic environment... Instructor say, students do. Now, i know that sounds a bit 'Karate Kid' and all, but I am talking about reasonable instruction, not instilling violent behaviour or the like.
rick_tsdmdk
Yellow Belt
They would test the same as everyone else. If they do well, they pass, if not they flunk and learn a valuable lesson too.
I am not often wrong, but if someone is borderline ready, and wants to find out how close they are, why not let them? Maybe they know more than I realize - with 100 students, I sometimes can't remember everyone's exact progress.
Another way to think about this is to think about the purpose of the test. Is the student trying to show you want they know or is the student going to learn something from the test?
Teachers call this assessment of learning and assessment as learning. When I give a test, it is the former because I assess a students learning every single time they show up to class.
I've have jujutsu tests where the slightest technical mistake would have landed one a failure. I see value in this approach and I see where a teacher would be the best judge to see if a student is ready.
For assessment as learning, though, one goal may be to teach the student where they are in regards to their skill level. If a student asks to test and the teacher thinks it is a good idea, that is a great measure of the students ability to assess oneself.
Teachers call this assessment of learning and assessment as learning. When I give a test, it is the former because I assess a students learning every single time they show up to class.
I've have jujutsu tests where the slightest technical mistake would have landed one a failure. I see value in this approach and I see where a teacher would be the best judge to see if a student is ready.
For assessment as learning, though, one goal may be to teach the student where they are in regards to their skill level. If a student asks to test and the teacher thinks it is a good idea, that is a great measure of the students ability to assess oneself.
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