Are you really training in Taekwondo?

[Miles]

Not to start flames, but rather to play Devil's Advocate, I would suggest that if you do not perform Taeguek poomsae and do full-contact (Olympic style) sparring you are not training in Taekwondo.

If you go to Korea, you will not find people doing the Pyung-ahn, Chang-Hon, or Palgwe poomsae and calling what they are practicing Taekwondo. You will not find anyone wearing the foam safety-equipment on their hands or feet.

So my question is, are you really training in Taekwondo, or are you practicing something else?

Miles

 

[bignick]

Not to start flames? What did you think would happen when you set such narrow criteria (which I'm assuming you follow) as being taekwondo and everything else as some bastard version?

I think you're a bit off in your assumptions about what is taekwondo. Why do you feel that the doing the Palgwe or Pyong-an forms disqualify something as not being taekwondo...or for that matter what does your style of sparring have to do with it?

Remember, the taeguks are the only the newest set of forms practiced by WTF taekwondo. We are WTF and we practice the palgwe set. Perhaps I could accuse you of not practicing real taekwondo since you don't perform palgwe forms anymore. And perhaps someone else could accuse me of not performing taekwondo because I don't practice the pyong-an series.

And as for sparring, full contact and point sparring both have their benefits. As long as they are practiced with the right attitude either will benefit the practitioner greatly.

As for the Koreans? Why does what some of them practice, because I'm sure you could find ITF practioners in Korea or people that still perform the palgwe poomse, make it the international standard for taekwondo. Korea was the birthplace of what we call "taekwondo" but it owes it's origins to Okinawan and Chinese arts as well.

I don't quite understand what your playing "Devil's Advocate" aims to accomplish. But, I will now step down and let others have their say...

 

[TigerWoman]

Just because one organization practices one set a forms does not disqualify other forms or just because they practice sparring a certain way make it the best way. Especially since they were introduced later in the history of Tae Kwon Do. I would venture to say there are a lot of schools that do not fit your criteria nor would your school fit their's. Doesn't mean one is better than the other, as Bignick said, they all have their good/bad points. If we are training in Taekwondo or Tae Kwon Do, whether the sport or the art, it's all good, depending on your end goal.

We used to train more into the sport and more students went to Nationals but we still did form, Taekgueks, one-steps, self-defense, breaking etc. The Taegueks compared to the traditional (ITF) forms are alot simpler I have found and easier to teach. So more people stay in Taekwondo to further the art. I have learned the ITF forms and wouldn't mind learning the Palgwe's either. They are after all the older forms with alot more history behind them.

We do non-stop sparring for class practice with full gear even though I have witnessed a ton of injuries with gear on. Maybe that is why they made it. And they continue to make protective gear better. And we do point sparring for tournaments for safety reasons with new cage headgear.
You can try your way with no gear on and see how many students are left at the end of the year if they make that far. However you or schools is Korea want to practice Tae Kwon Do or Taekwondo, or a myriad of others, it is still practiced the way of the individual Master or Grandmaster handed down. No one way is absolutely correct and no one organization is either. TW

 

[jfarnsworth]

So my question is, are you really training in Taekwondo, or are you practicing something else?

I fail to see what you are trying to say! :idunno:

Are we talking about personal interpretation of the art? Well then, my idea is different than yours. Probably different then the previous 2 posters. It may in fact be different from any other poster on this board. I do not see your point by this thread. I fought in PKC sanctioned tournaments, ustu tournaments, heck; as a matter of fact I climbed in the ring and did some full contact kickboxing. :idunno: And I still came back into the studio for our workout sessions. Are you still saying that I didn't do TKD? :idunno: :idunno: ????????? Our school did ITF forms. Did I still not practice TKD? :idunno: Help me out here then, and tell me what I did? 5yrs. of my life gone :idunno: . Bumber! Maybe I'll call my instructor and ask him tonight what he taught. I've been meaning to call him anyway for christmas. Maybe he and I can chat about the art he taught me.

 

[shesulsa]

I must say that after seven and one-half years in the Korean martial arts, it is very disheartenind to hear - from various Korean arts - the "my art is the REAL art and if you're doing it any other way, you're doing something else."

Apparently, some folks still think that purity in art is still possible and I say that's horse-puckey.

As soon as an art form or fighting system or combat style or whatever anyone wants to call their mucky-muck is passed on from one to another, it changes - even if ever so slightly.

Perhaps the other taekwondo practitioners on this forum aren't doing YOUR version of TKD, but that doesn't mean it isn't TKD. Arts grow and evolve and change over time. Like it or not, that is the martial arts world and arguing origins on the Korean peninsula is pointless, IMHO, because though not too many want to admit it, when one dynasty overthrew another, historical records were destroyed or changed, new ones created. And we all know how word-of-mouth goes. All one must do is look at some of the prominent Koreans in our arts to see how these things are often handled.

You might feel that you received strong responses to your original post. And you did. I think it's time we stop bickering about whose mucky-muck is the real thing and whose is not. We are all walking a path heading towards a common goal.

It is time for Korean martial artists to eat a piece of humble pie, shake hands, put the past behind them, and step forward to preserve the influence of Korean martial arts in America through common interest and sharing, rather than warring with one another.

Peace.

JKN Georgia Ketchmark

 

[terryl965]

Not to start flames, but rather to play Devil's Advocate, I would suggest that if you do not perform Taeguek poomsae and do full-contact (Olympic style) sparring you are not training in Taekwondo.

If you go to Korea, you will not find people doing the Pyung-ahn, Chang-Hon, or Palgwe poomsae and calling what they are practicing Taekwondo. You will not find anyone wearing the foam safety-equipment on their hands or feet.

So my question is, are you really training in Taekwondo, or are you practicing something else?

Miles

First off your talking Olympic style which is Tae Kwon Do but the sport aspect not the same as traditional TKD. So before you make bold statement know all the facts about a Art not just the sport aspect, you insult the Art with this type of saying. The old guys that have been doing it the old way are pure TKD'ers not the sport. Use your search engines and look up Traditional TKD and maybe just maybe you'll understand. :erg:
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Scout_379]

Miles, you didn't want a war, but its still going to be very one sided. You're doubting your art. If you feel as if you're not training as..hardcore as you think you should be, why not take it up with you're instructor, or better yet get a group of friends and try it out yourself.

 

[Zepp]

Miles,

Somehow I think I knew you were going to ask this question sooner or later. I think Shesulsa has already given you the best answer.

But just to play devil's advocate...

You are aware that the name Tae Kwon Do (doesn't matter how you spell it in English, since the Korean spelling is still the same) was originally put forth by Son, Duk Sung and Choi, Han Hi, aren't you? Neither of those men have ever been affiliated with the Kukkiwon or WTF, and both had left Korea before the founding of Kukkiwon. Therefore, if you really want to argue about who should use the name Tae Kwon Do/Taekwondo/Tae'guendo, I think the WTF comes in last place.

On a personal note, what they're practicing in Korea these days doesn't concern me very much. I train in the martial art taught by Grandmaster Duk Sung Son, one of the first people to use the name Tae Kwon Do for what he teaches.

Lastly, if you look through this section of the forum, I'm pretty sure you'll find that there is enough common ground amongst all of our training that the name we use is fairly irrelevant.

 

[MichiganTKD]

The Christian religion is divided into major subdivisions: Catholicism, Protestantism, Greek Orthodox, Anglican etc. Each of those is further divided into denominations. But all have the same roots and the same basic belief system.

Similarly, Tae Kwon Do is divided into subdivisions: ITF, WTF, ATA, WTA etc. Each traces their history back to a certain period in the development of Korean Tae Kwon Do. Each is considered Tae Kwon Do because each was founded by Koreans trained in Tae Kwon Do and using traditional etiquette and practices. The forms are different, but all use accepted Tae Kwon Do technique, just different interpretations. ITF and WTF differ in many aspects, but both are simply variations of Korean Tae Kwon Do. Am I not Tae Kwon Do because I don't do the Chang Hon forms? Perhaps some hard core ITF people might think so, but I practice a version founded by Koreans, headquartered in Korea, and endorsed by the Korean government. Sounds like Tae Kwon Do to me.

 

[Marginal]

Not to start flames, but rather to play Devil's Advocate, I would suggest that if you do not perform Taeguek poomsae and do full-contact (Olympic style) sparring you are not training in Taekwondo.

That's like trying to say "If you don't practice Shotokan, you don't practice real karate." I'm sure someone beleives it...

 

[ajs1976]

I think Miles point was missed, so i'm going to talk about ice cream.

Let's say that when ice cream was invented, the original flavor was vanilla. then some time later, the ingredients were changed and the Strawberry flavor was invented. Then someone invented chocolate. There are three different flavors but in the end they are all still ice cream.

Someone else came up with something called vanilla frozen yogurt. It is very similiar to vanilla ice cream, but is a different product.

I was recently introduced to chocolate ice cream. I really like it and so far it is the only one i have tried and it is my favorite. I have learned there are other flavors of ice cream. I am interested in sampling these other flavors. Maybe overtime, I will decide the strawberry is my favorite flavor. Or maybe, I will like chocolate/vanilla twist or even Neopolian (the kind that has all three flavors). I have even heard that you can make your ice cream 'better' by adding either things to it like chocolated chips, peanuts, and butter scotch syrup.

Eventually, I will find the flavor or combination that is the 'best' for 'me'. They way the people in this community can help is instead of trying to make your favorite flavor my favorite flavor by cramming it down my throat, you can discuss the difference of the flavors or find ways to help others sample your flavor.

 

[terryl965]

Please everybody that would say Olympic is TKD is the only TKD does not know there backside from there Front. Nothing wrong with Olympic TKD we train prospect everyday in it but you have to relize the other aspect as well. I for one do both ITF, WTF and traditional style of TKD. Does evrybody I know like it NO but thats there choice, I train my wife and three boy.s in all aspect of TKD and then we train people in just the sport of TKD. Please read history about the Art and then make comments that can be backed up with doc.Have a Wonderful Holiday.
Terry L Stoker
Twin Dragons MAS
Arlington, TX. 76010

 

[TigerWoman]

Okay we have mostly all made our viewpoints known, but Miles, I don't think you have. You just posed the "devil's advocate" viewpoint not necessarily yours, I believe. So what is your viewpoint and the point to your original post? TW

 

[Miles]

Okay we have mostly all made our viewpoints known, but Miles, I don't think you have. You just posed the "devil's advocate" viewpoint not necessarily yours, I believe. So what is your viewpoint and the point to your original post? TW

I am sorry that the question was misconstrued-that is my fault. Thank you TW, perhaps I should have expounded upon my "Devil's Advocate" viewpoint only after providing my personal viewpoint.

Personally, I believe that all martial arts have at their core the ability to develop character. The art is not as important as the artist. Whether you practice a Korean/Japanese/Filipino/Russian/Western or a mixed art, if you are training hard and overcoming your personal limitations, developing into a more positive person, that is the goal.

I have had the privelege to study under ITF and WTF instructors, along with Shotokan Karate, Judo and Jujitsu. Currently, I teach Kukkiwon-styleTaekwondo. I graduated from the Kukkiwon Foreign Instructor Course this year.

Now, to get back to my original question, in Korea and across the world, there is a standardized form of Taekwondo which is continuing to evolve-lets call that Kukkiwon-style. There are globally, likewise, people who study an earlier form (for lack of a more universal description). These earlier forms have also continued to evolve independently. I am making no value judgments as to either "form", if you will.

My question is at what point are evolutionary paths between these "styles/forms" so disparate that they become different arts? (i.e. Judo from Jujitsu, Hapkido from Jujitsu, Taekwondo from Shotokan Karate, etc.) Again, I apologize to anyone offended, that was surely not my goal.

Miles

 

[Miles]

I fail to see what you are trying to say! :idunno:

Are we talking about personal interpretation of the art? Well then, my idea is different than yours. .....

Thank you Jfarnsworth, you are asking the question better than I did. What is your personal interpretation? At what point is Tang Soo Do really Taekwondo or vice-versa or something else?

Miles

 

[shesulsa]

My question is at what point are evolutionary paths between these "styles/forms" so disparate that they become different arts? (i.e. Judo from Jujitsu, Hapkido from Jujitsu, Taekwondo from Shotokan Karate, etc.)

Now that's a good question.

Sorry if you felt ganged-up on. I think it's fascinating that so many people feel the same way about KMA and perhaps with discussions happening in other forums about standardization we wonder about the continued industrialization of martial arts. (anyone?)

 

[Miles]

I think Miles point was missed, so i'm going to talk about ice cream.

Let's say that when ice cream was invented, the original flavor was vanilla. then some time later, the ingredients were changed and the Strawberry flavor was invented. Then someone invented chocolate. There are three different flavors but in the end they are all still ice cream.

Someone else came up with something called vanilla frozen yogurt. It is very similiar to vanilla ice cream, but is a different product.

......(heavily edited by Miles) They way the people in this community can help is instead of trying to make your favorite flavor my favorite flavor by cramming it down my throat, you can discuss the difference of the flavors or find ways to help others sample your flavor.

Exactly. Now, Doc, what about Taekwondo?

Miles

 

[Miles]

Now that's a good question.

Sorry if you felt ganged-up on. I think it's fascinating that so many people feel the same way about KMA and perhaps with discussions happening in other forums about standardization we wonder about the continued industrialization of martial arts. (anyone?)

Not so much "ganged-up" as misunderstood. But, that was my fault.

Yes, I got the idea from the Hapkido folks who speak about standardization in rank and curriculum all the time.

Miles

 

[jfarnsworth]

What is your personal interpretation?

As stated before I did ITF TKD. I had a variety of instructors in TKD as well. I got to see the favorite aspects of TKD from each of them. A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch. As far as personal opinion goes; are we trying to compare curriculum's from our instructors to their instructors and so on? I know that I was promoted in my style of TKD which was slightly different from another TKD school less than 10 miles away. Are our schools both right; Yes. Were either wrong; No. All of our curriculum's will be different depending upon association, instructor, lineage, groups, fly by nights, backyard dojo's, fighting style's, previous experience, etc. No one style is right or wrong just a different way to do things. :asian:

 

[Marginal]

My question is at what point are evolutionary paths between these "styles/forms" so disparate that they become different arts? (i.e. Judo from Jujitsu, Hapkido from Jujitsu, Taekwondo from Shotokan Karate, etc.) Again, I apologize to anyone offended, that was surely not my goal.

Miles

Usually such a shift comes into play when the strategic focus of a style shifts. For example, TKD's a empty handed striking art with the core concept that the legs are superior weapons to the hands.

So if you're teaching a version of Taekwon Do that features mainly grappling and/or punching, it's hard to qualify that as TKD anymore. You could try to still call it TKD, but it'd probably confuse more people than anything else.