Are you bound by tradition?

Gyakuto

Master Black Belt
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2020
Messages
1,400
Reaction score
1,097
Location
UK
When you chose your preferred style of martial art, did you understand the tradition and why it was created?
No. In those pre-internet times it was difficult to find martial arts clubs - usually word of mouth - so you enrolled where you could. No explanation of anything was given in the class other than the techniques being taught. Only those of us who were interested in the background of the art (just me) actually ventured into the local library and tried to find books on the art etc and then devoured every fact about it that I could. When I realised the school of Karate wasnt perhaps the best for me, I just soldiered on as there was no alternative.

It all turned out alright in the end!
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,897
Reaction score
970
I think visiting with different arts has a lot of value. Different arts often teach and/or use the same principles in different ways. Some of the biggest "light bulb moments" I've had were seeing how another art approached something found within my primary art.

Being exposed to other arts also makes it easier to see weaknesses in one's primary art. Those weaknesses are often masked within the closed group of an art, because nearly everyone has them. Playing with people from another art can expose them pretty quickly.
That is what I referred to as "cross referencing". You don't need to abandon your primary art, but you can look at other arts and apply it within the parameters of what you are already doing.
 

_Simon_

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
4,253
Reaction score
2,703
Location
Australia
When you chose your preferred style of martial art, did you understand the tradition and why it was created?
When you chose your preferred martial art style, did you understand the original (traditional) goal of its creation?

Yes! A crazy researcher I am haha, but I did, and it really captivated me :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,446
Reaction score
4,198
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
When you chose your preferred martial art style, did you understand the original (traditional) goal of its creation?
Different MA systems help you to develop different spirit.

Taiji - if you don't move, I won't move. If you move, I'll move faster than you do.
XingYi - any move that take more than 1/2 second is bad move.
Praying mantis - When a praying mantis attack, it will never retreat.
Long fist - knock on your opponent's door. When he opens, you enter.
Chinese wrestling - It's better to attack and lose than to defend and win.
...

To complete MA training, one should go through

- grade school training,
- high school training, and
- university training.

For example, Taiji is the university training. But today, many people just start Taiji training without any foundation.

To me, the current MMA approach may sound like one hasn't finished his grade school training, he then jumps into university training without going through the high school training.
 
Last edited:

marvin8

Green Belt
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Messages
181
Reaction score
91
It's more a matter of getting that outside perspective on how something I do might create problems for me and then considering how I might best address those problems.

IMO, the praying mantis "switch hands" is the best bridge for striking art and the throwing art integration.


"Without block, there will be no clinch."

I don't block a jab. I throw a fake punch, when my opponent blocks it, I pull his blocking arm.

I posted two video clips containing clinching without blocking. What do you mean by the term, "Without block, there will be no clinch?"

I posted two video clips of defending a jab, including Masvidal defending by stepping back and parrying. Do you have a video demoing your "switch hands" of the posted typical jab defenses? I've never seen anyone extend their arm exposing their face, while not moving their head to "block" a jab.
As proven in the clinch clips posted, your truism "Without block, there will be no clinch" is false. Your "switch hands" is not the best bridge for striking art and the throwing art integration. Because, your "block" is not logical nor typical. And, it violates the action-reaction principle that you brought up.

"The problem created" in training to "throw a fake jab" then chase and pull down a "block" that is not there is it can expose your face, while not developing actual clinch skills.

Another couple examples that follows the action-reaction principle, "throws a fake jab," responds to common reactions and leads to a clinch"without block."

At Alex Volkanovski vs Korean Zombie, Alex (UFC Featherweight Champion) drills and executes:

1. Starting from outside fighting range, Alex steps right leading Zombie to step left
2. "throws a fake jab"
3. listens for Zombie to shift his weight to the back foot (double weight)
4. Alex controls Zombie's arms and center with his lead hand
5. then hop steps and issues left front cut/osoto gari:

FUjgpVR.gif



Here Kamaru Usman, NCAA Division II wrestling champion...

1. Starting from outside fighting range "throws a fake jab"
2. listens for Mavidal to parry and step back shifting his weight to the back foot (double weight)
3. Grabs Masvidal's parry, throws right hand, while follow stepping with rear foot to a clinch/takedown position:

BPqsGvS.gif
 
Last edited:

Alan0354

Master of Arts
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,742
Reaction score
541
Different MA systems help you to develop different spirit.

Taiji - if you don't move, I won't move. If you move, I'll move faster than you do.
XingYi - any move that take more than 1/2 second is bad move.
Praying mantis - When a praying mantis attack, it will never retreat.
Long fist - knock on your opponent's door. When he opens, you enter.
Chinese wrestling - It's better to attack and lose than to defend and win.
...

To complete MA training, one should go through

- grade school training,
- high school training, and
- university training.

For example, Taiji is the university training. But today, many people just start Taiji training without any foundation.

To me, the current MMA approach may sound like one hasn't finished his grade school training, he then jumps into university training without going through the high school training.
But MMA BEATs all the loud mouth people since the 90s. I am still waiting to proof otherwise.
 
Last edited:

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,309
Reaction score
10,076
Location
Hendersonville, NC
To me, the current MMA approach may sound like one hasn't finished his grade school training, he then jumps into university training without going through the high school training.

But MMA BEATs all the loud mouth people since the 90s. I am still waiting to proof otherwise.
What does this style-vs-style kind of post have to do with the discussion at hand?

EDIT: Somehow, I missed adding John's quote.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,446
Reaction score
4,198
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
What does this style-vs-style kind of post have to do with the discussion at hand?

EDIT: Somehow, I missed adding John's quote.
Tradition - go through beginner level, intermediate level, and advance level training.
Non-tradition - doesn't follow this. For example, Bruce Lee had never defined how a JKD guy's beginner level training (foundation building) should be.

Can a JKD guy just punches on heavy bag and claims that he has developed his foundation (beginner level training)? I don't think so.
 

Hanshi

Green Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
198
Reaction score
144
Location
Virginia
I started karate as a child and stayed with it. But, I ended up training in other martial arts - and I boxed some - with the result that I gained black belts of various ranks in several arts. I'm looking down the barrel at 80 yoa in the next 3 years but there are problems. I trained and taught for well over 61 years but had to retire and then sell my dojo when I became disabled. Before that my dojo was the longest surviving dojo in town and it's still going under a new owner - and name - who is a dear friend.

I guess the point is that I was never stuck in a "tradition" but simply learned about all the other traditions as I trained in them and taught. I've always encouraged other M/As to seriously train in at the very least 1 or 2 other martial arts so they won't get stuck in their arts tradition.
 

Gerry Seymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
29,309
Reaction score
10,076
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Tradition - go through beginner level, intermediate level, and advance level training.
Non-tradition - doesn't follow this. For example, Bruce Lee had never defined how a JKD guy's beginner level training (foundation building) should be.

Can a JKD guy just punches on heavy bag and claims that he has developed his foundation (beginner level training)? I don't think so.
There are many approaches to training. I know of nothing that reasonably supports the idea that MMA gyms offer incomplete training (going from elementary to university).
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,706
Reaction score
10,021
Location
Maui
I started karate as a child and stayed with it. But, I ended up training in other martial arts - and I boxed some - with the result that I gained black belts of various ranks in several arts. I'm looking down the barrel at 80 yoa in the next 3 years but there are problems. I trained and taught for well over 61 years but had to retire and then sell my dojo when I became disabled. Before that my dojo was the longest surviving dojo in town and it's still going under a new owner - and name - who is a dear friend.

I guess the point is that I was never stuck in a "tradition" but simply learned about all the other traditions as I trained in them and taught. I've always encouraged other M/As to seriously train in at the very least 1 or 2 other martial arts so they won't get stuck in their arts tradition.
Love this post. Love it.
 

Alan0354

Master of Arts
Joined
Apr 29, 2021
Messages
1,742
Reaction score
541
There are many approaches to training. I know of nothing that reasonably supports the idea that MMA gyms offer incomplete training (going from elementary to university).
It might sounds like I am anti TMA particular when mentioned MMA is like skipping high school and jump to college. I am responding NOT because I am expert in MA as I am NOT. But I did put in a few years of hard work and I am not a beginner. But this is a lot more than talking about MA. I am using my experience in my life to say the following.

MA is only a small part of my life, just part of aerobic exercise together with weight training. I have quite a bit of life experience other than MA and I have a STRONG OPINION about formal education vs someone just have it and work hard at it.

I was a musician and I actually won 1st in Talent Quest in Hong Kong 4 times by the time I turn 20. I had a little name in HK, believe me, its not easy to make it in entertainment industry. I did not have formal training in music, I can barely read music. Its about having it and work hard at it. I taught student and some really practice hard, but I can tell within a month whether that person has it or not. In the 70s, I took some music classis, Ive seen people that were good in theory and read music, but they couldnt play if their lives depend on it. I can tell some of the greatest guitarists have absolutely no formal training from looking at how they pick and run the fingers. They just can play.

I quit music in 79 after I found my ultimate passion in ELECTRONICS and never looked back. My degree was bio-chemistry in college, no foundation knowledge like advanced calculus and physics that are for electronics. I literally started from ground level. I never really had formal schooling, I studied on my own and just wing it. I started as test technician, promote to engineering tech, Jr. Engineer in 1 1/2yrs. I study on my own, work hard. I kept getting promotion and became manager of Electronic Engineering in 89, 10yrs after I got into the field. I worked in environment 70% of my co-worker were PhD. Talk about highly educated.

I really design On-The-Fly using common sense and INSTINCT. I managed to publish 2 articles in the prestige American Institute of Physics, Review of Scientific Instruments, and own 3 US patent under my name. All these time, I never studied more than 2 semesters of Calculus and 2 semester of physics, never studied in Microwave electronics that I am expert in. I just rely on common sense and INSTINCT for that. I actually fell so bad that after I retired, I studied back all the advanced Calculus and Physics to make myself WHOLE, not for the job, but to proof to myself I actually deserves to be an EE. After I spent 6yrs studied back everything, I CAN SAY ALL THE STUDY DID NOT MAKE ME ANY BETTER AS A DESIGNER.

When I became manager and had to hire technicians. I made up a test mainly from the introduction books used in a trade school. I thought they should have not problem answering if they went through a junior college or trade school. WRONG. I yet to have one that can answer those questions without a lot of help and hints. OK, that might be unfair as they were only technicians. When I hire EE, I thought I just gave them the same 3 questions, they should have no problem answering those, those are very simple fundamental introduction to electronics色名RONG. I tripped so many with BS degree and years of experience.

There goes to show, just because one went through formal training MEANS NOTHING. In fact, If I were in charge of Mechanical engineering and software engineering, the TWO I would fired was a ME from STANFORD U and the Software from UC Berkley. Those are the TOP college in US, or even in the WORLD. Problem with them is they over analyze everything, keep telling me what CANNOT work. I WANT THEM TO COME OUT WITH SOMETHING THAT WORKS. Dont tell me why it doesnt work!!!

In the real world, its the result that matters. I dont care someone can design by rolling the dice or black magic, as long as one can hit it 100% of the time, its good enough for me. Just like I said all talks are cheap. 2 people enter the ring, one walk out. WIN, then talk.
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,446
Reaction score
4,198
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
In the real world, its the result that matters.
I have to agree with you 100% on this. I have always thought I am the most anti-tradition in this forum. When I was 14, the 1st day of my serious MA class, I asked my long fist teacher what would he do if I punched his face?

I have seen so many people who have strong foundation but won't be able to last 10 seconds in the ring or on the mat. What's wrong with their training?

IMO, those people with good MA foundation are lacking fighting experience. I do believe if one spars/wrestles 15 rounds daily, he can become a good fighter after just 3 years.

MA to me is 100% combat. I can't care less about self-cultivation, inner peace, spiritual enlightenment, fight without fighting, ... When I see a fist that comes toward my face, I get very excited. :)
 
Last edited:
Top