Are the Best 'Chunners Chinese?

[geezer]

I was in a conversation a while back during which a very skilled and widely traveled non-Chinese 'Chunner declared that he didn't believe that the most efficient and combat effective WC/WT/VT in the world today was practiced by the Chinese. He felt that the current generation of Chinese "masters" have not advanced the art to the degree that certain non-Chinese masters have. He even stated that members of a certain European group openly claim to hold the highest standard in the world... and he feels they may be right! Needless to say this generated a lot of debate between us. Of course, there can be no right answer. Nevertheless it was an interesting discussion, and one that I cannot even imagine taking place 20 years ago.

So, my question is, based on your experiences, do you feel that the Chinese standard is still the highest, or is the most advanced WC/WT/VT now being trained elsewhere and by non-Chinese individuals? In short, "Where is the best Wing Chun being taught today?"

 

[WanderRA]

Shaun Rawcliffe has written the best books about the subject.. he teaches in Birmingham UK, his sifu is Ip Chun so Id say he knows his stuff.

Also, even the best classes will have a poor student, you know..the fat one at the end of the line. The best teacher's teach motivation. They teach the student to think/question/explore himself.

 

[Rain]

Well I would like to point out that the chinese government is communist and because of this would not want an effective martial art being taught to the populace that may give them the skills to resist police action. Because of this and the persecution that the old masters (monks of the order of shaolin chan.) fled china. they are now located in the United states. I would say especially due to the awareness of MMA that the best Wing chun would be found anywhere but china. Rather it would be here and in Europe that Wing chun would be allowed to prosper. Seeing has how some prospective chunners myself included are aiming at competeing using wing chun I would conclude that yes the best practicioners of WC are now non-chinese.

 

[mook jong man]

Most of the Wing Chun is in Hong Kong and the chinese government doesn't really give a rats posterior what they do , the practitioners just carry on doing what they have always done.

As for are the best Wing Chun people chinese , well that depends on the type of Wing Chun you are after.

I am from a lineage that tries to cultivate " Nim Lik " or what Sigung Tsui calls Wing Chun Thought Force.
So in my case his is the method I follow and he is Chinese and as far as I'm concerned he is very good at what he does.

 

[zepedawingchun]

I think anyone from the era of Jiu Wan and Yip Man, students of theirs who are still alive and teaching, still have the best in skills and knowledge when it comes to Wing Chun. So yes, those chinese are still the standard. However, the standard may not be in Hong Kong anymore. Most of them are scattered all over the world. Once they die off (in another 20 or 30 years), then I'm not sure where it will be.

 

[coffeerox]

There are people from mainland China that are very impressive and we don't know about them so I would not jump to conclusions as that guy have. Also students from Yip Man era are still alive such as William Cheung, Chu Shong Tin, Ip Chun, Ip Ching, Hawkins Cheung, Duncan Leung, Allan CK Lee, Leung Ting and others I may have missed.

 

[Vajramusti]

I was in a conversation a while back during which a very skilled and widely traveled non-Chinese 'Chunner declared that he didn't believe that the most efficient and combat effective WC/WT/VT in the world today was practiced by the Chinese. He felt that the current generation of Chinese "masters" have not advanced the art to the degree that certain non-Chinese masters have. He even stated that members of a certain European group openly claim to hold the highest standard in the world... and he feels they may be right! Needless to say this generated a lot of debate between us. Of course, there can be no right answer. Nevertheless it was an interesting discussion, and one that I cannot even imagine taking place 20 years ago.

So, my question is, based on your experiences, do you feel that the Chinese standard is still the highest, or is the most advanced WC/WT/VT now being trained elsewhere and by non-Chinese individuals? In short, "Where is the best Wing Chun being taught today?"

________________________________________________________________
Well Steve-I disagree with your friend.In my judgment there are some very good non Chinese wing chun folks- but there are still lots and lots of very good Chinese wing chun folks-NOT because of their ethnicity but because of their proximity to the source i.e. learning from some key students of Ip Man.What I have seen of mainland wing chun is much less impressive.Wong Sheun Lung ex- brother in law-a non Chinese- is very good and WSL's ex assistant Gary Lam is quite good also and teaches in LA.Ho Kam Ming has produced top flight wing chun people in Macao, Arizona and he has planted good seeds in Toronto.Augustine Fong has continued to develop wing chun very well in Tucson.Fong's best student is an American Chinese- Danny Chan.Fong's best female student was non Chinese but is more into Buddhism for several years.
A Chinese television broadcasting company has been filming different Chinese martial arts.For wing chun they showcased Ho Kam Ming;s school in Macao.
Wing chun continues to spread unevenly and often when folks generalize- they haven't seen it all and are advertising and media driven in forming their opinions.

joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com

 

[WC_lun]

I've no idea if the best are Chinese or not. I haven't traded hands with every single person that does Wing Chun, so I've no way of knowing. The best I've ever come across on a personel level is Dale Vits and he is half Chinese. Maybe you half right

 

[coffeerox]

What I have seen of mainland wing chun is much less impressive

how is it less impressive, in your expert opinion?

 

[Vajramusti]

how is it less impressive, in your expert opinion?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinion only-Three points among others:

1. With the exception of Sum Nun's better students- bad structure among other things.

2. Historically Mao's regime sytematically attempted to cut off fighting aspects of wu shu. Transmission of wing chun was broken...with wing chun masters exiting the PRC.After Mao they have been trying to reintroduce fighting aspects in PRC.

3. The remainder non Ip man or Sum nun folks have elements of wing chun but their versions are incomplete.Gu Lo got some of Leung Jan but not complete. Pan Nam has a wing chun- hung gar mix.

joy chaudhuri

 

[cwk]

Joy.
I study a mainland version of wing chun, via malaysia- cho family wing chun under Sifu Ku Choi Wah. I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in seeing a wing chun master in the truest sense, to pay him a visit in Singpore where he now resides.
I guarantee that after a meeting with him you would not think that all mainland versions are unimpressive. He has been practicing wing chun for longer than 99% of people on this forum have been alive and is a living legend here in south east asia.

 

[coffeerox]

Chi Sao in Mainland China

 

[cwk]

Cool clip, thanks.
The thing with rolling this way ( circular ) is that it's very difficult to apply the usual pak da, tan da, under lap,etc that are commonly practiced by Hong Kong lineages when they do chi sao. This makes it look less refined to the onlooker but anyone who tries it this way will agree that it's much more difficult and IMHO lends itself to more realistic exchanges.
But that's only my opinion so don't get upset people if you don't agree.

give it a try.Just remember to keep your elbows tucked in, one hand on the inside of your opponents and one on the outside and just start rolling. try it rolling outside to in and also inside to outside.

 

[matsu]

wow....talk about opening a can of worms lol.
its very difficult to say who is the best as our individual opinion will vary as to own experience and unless we can get them all in a room for a fight .....some risen from the grave we will never know.
what i do think is that ,in the same way that ip man took it and evolved it and as several people have done since, wing chun will evolve as the world around it evolves.
certainly my sifu has taken it forward in his way.

nice clip from coffeerrox,
we use that type of chi sau as well as the typically seen version.when i see our advanced guys it looks incredibly untidy but it is as close to a controlled fight as they can get.
matsu

 

[Vajramusti]

Joy.
I study a mainland version of wing chun, via malaysia- cho family wing chun under Sifu Ku Choi Wah. I would encourage anyone who is seriously interested in seeing a wing chun master in the truest sense, to pay him a visit in Singpore where he now resides.
I guarantee that after a meeting with him you would not think that all mainland versions are unimpressive. He has been practicing wing chun for longer than 99% of people on this forum have been alive and is a living legend here in south east asia.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not met him. When i went to Singapore several years ago- I tried to meet other martial artists and I met with a WC friend who I have lost touch with. A funny thing- I did chi sao with my friend at one corner of the Singapore airport while waiting for a plane.Probably Sifu Ku had not arrived there yet. I saw the "rolling" in the link posted by Coffeerox. I understand that rolling but much prefer the Ip Man way-which when done right has unerring sense of the center line at all times. But I understand different folks have different options and choices.Do you know Hendrik Santos? he knows much about Cho Family wc. I respect what others do.Good wishes
joy chaudhuri

 

[mook jong man]

Cool clip, thanks.
The thing with rolling this way ( circular ) is that it's very difficult to apply the usual pak da, tan da, under lap,etc that are commonly practiced by Hong Kong lineages when they do chi sao. This makes it look less refined to the onlooker but anyone who tries it this way will agree that it's much more difficult and IMHO lends itself to more realistic exchanges.
But that's only my opinion so don't get upset people if you don't agree.

give it a try.Just remember to keep your elbows tucked in, one hand on the inside of your opponents and one on the outside and just start rolling. try it rolling outside to in and also inside to outside.

It looked to me as though there were giant gaping holes down the centre line in which someone with a decent Tan Sau could have pierced through.
Probably also would have been possible to run palms on them and hit into the centre as they keep trying to force your hands out into that big circle

But I will reserve proper judgement until after I give it a go with one of my students tomorrow , but I imagine he will just think why is this guys hands so far off the centre line as he palm strikes me repeatedly in the chest.

 

[cwk]

Mook,
It does seem like it leaves a big hole in the centre to start, at least that's what I feel when i do it anyway lol, that's why I said it's more difficult. after some practice though it gets tighter down the middle.
I personally like to train 4 different types of rolling, including the tan,bong roll most commonly seen. I feel they all develop needed attributes. The bong, tan roll is very good for constantly pressuring the centre line and develops this skill well. for me the circular rolling is good training for when your initial strike is blocked or parried and you use circular movement to regain the line and either trap and strike or just finish your strike.
if your going to try rolling this way, remember to keep your elbows into your sides and keep the circles small, not big like some on the clip.Also try it inside and out.

joy,
I don't know Hendrik but I know of him from stuff on the internet. His sifu Cho hoong Choi and Ku sifu both learned from Cho On.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Chi Sao in Mainland China

I think this clip just proves Vajramusti's point of mainland Wing Chun being a little less impressive. That's what my chi sao looked like when I first started training and my sifu and senior brother's just hit me at will.

One other thing, I think the chinese tend to be the standard when it comes to Wing Chun is because the concepts of yin and yang are so intertwined in Wing Chun, the chinese culture, and everyday life. It's natural for them (chinese) to understand its use (concepts) in the arts because it's so much a part of them and living.

 

[matsu]

i had to go back and re look at the clip.... and agai....and again lol.
still interesting clip but........
we def do not windmill like they did, my chest would be black and blue if we did lol.
matsu

 

[hunt1]

The real question is what is your basis for determining "best".

Skill at chi sau? Real fighting ability? etc. If the standard is real usage against other skilled opponents in a sparring ,ring, starting apart and waiting till both are ready type of setting then I would tilt to those in the west but nothing is exclusive. However many of the old chinese masters really don't have and never had real fighting skills.

For example some one mentions Yip Chun and Shawn R. . Yip Chun has said he never had a fight in his life. He never used wing chun for its intended purpose. So how can he possible teach what he doesn't know. If you have never been in real fights against other skilled people you can not possibly know how to apply wing chun in those situations.

My last Ip Man sifu was TST. His is my favorite Ip Man wing chun version but I don't think he nor most of his students could stop a take down from a skilled high school wrestler. Not because he doesn't have the skill but because until you train against a good shoot you do not have the context to put your knowledge into practical application.

I think those in the west have over the last 15 years or so have put more time into training against MMA type of skills and therefore have made more progress in making their wing chun more effective in real fighting situations.