Are Aikido's Circles Too Big?

[hapki68]

Here's a question for y'all...

In my hapkido class yesterday, my instructor was showing us a move. One thing led to another, and we ended up discussing the circular movements so important to hapkido and its predecessor, aikido. My instructor said that whereas aikido tends towards larger circles, hapkido stresses small, quick ones. The difference, he said in his weak English, is:

"Big circle, big circle, big circle -- lots of time, lots of time, lots of time."

In other words, there is a lot of time in the rotation of the larger circle for a counter attack.

Any thoughts on that?

Patrick

 

[agranjero]

Yes, I do have a thought about the circles being big. I am a practitioner of Yoseikan Budo, often listed as an early aiki style. While that is up for question as to whether it is aiki or soft jiujutsu,the question at hand about big circles was answered for me by Hiroo Mochizuki, the creator of Yoseikan budo who was a direct student of O Sensei in the 1950's.

Shihan Mochizuki said that he was at the dojo with Ueshiba Sensei one day and they were watching the beginner's class. Ueshiba said, see the big circles, this is for beginners to learn about the circular movement of aikido. But, Ueshiba said, this is not all that aiki is, the circles must get smaller. Shihan said that they went and worked out with Ueshiba and the circles were very small, very powerful and worked very well. Your teacher, in my opinion and the opinion of at least one of O Sensei's students, is correct, the big circles are for beginners, but the real power of aiki is in the very small circle.

 

[theletch1]

The circle should be only as big as it needs to be. That's a bit cryptic I know but what I'm saying there is that there are times when the energy being given from uke demands a larger circle for redirection and other times a small circle will do. As with everything in aikido it comes back to a balance of things. If we get hung up on "only small" or "only large" then we hamper our ability to flow with the energy at hand.

 

[howard]

It's interesting to note that the basis of Aikido, Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, uses mostly small, tight circular movements. Similar to Hapkido.

Hapki68, a small point perhaps, but I'm not sure I'd call Aikido the "predecessor" of Hapkido. There is no direct connection between the two arts... we know that Aikido derives largely from Daito Ryu, but the belief of many that Hapkido does too has not yet been proven. (btw, I'm a Hapkido guy.)

 

[Jenna]

Here's a question for y'all...

In my hapkido class yesterday, my instructor was showing us a move. One thing led to another, and we ended up discussing the circular movements so important to hapkido and its predecessor, aikido. My instructor said that whereas aikido tends towards larger circles, hapkido stresses small, quick ones. The difference, he said in his weak English, is:

"Big circle, big circle, big circle -- lots of time, lots of time, lots of time."

In other words, there is a lot of time in the rotation of the larger circle for a counter attack.

Any thoughts on that?

Patrick

Hey Patrick my determined friend yes I think Hapkido=small diameter -vs- Aikido=large diameter is ok for a one sentence comparison but you and I both know there is more to it than that, yes?

Now plainly I cannot speak with any Hapkido knowledge at all but I would imagine it would be similar to Aikido insofar as techs can EQUALLY be applied using EITHER big or small circles and it will depend upon the actual technique being done.. think of the differences in diameter between the wrist at kote gaeshi and the circle of a kokyu nage.. and will also depend upon the amount of energy being received from uke.. if he gives a great deal of energy it is more prudent to utilise the bigger circle to redirect.. using a small circle in THAT case requires you to absorb too much kinetic energy yourself I think

Likewise when applying a tech it is obvious that working it through the larger circle will generate more centripetal force (think of a slingshot... the longer it is when you wind it up.. the more kinetic energy it has upon release) and the larger the diameter of the circle through which you are winding uke.. the less ability he has to resist.. woohoo.. off you go.. hit the floor..LOL

Of course it is often quite simply EASIER to apply motion to the larger circle and which is why I would have previously encouraged less advanced students to open out their techniques in order to get the better appreciation for what they are doing and potentially to more accurately pinpoint where points of failure are occurring. Often more senior practitioners will use a smaller circle simply because it is more efficient. But at the same time.. more advanced aikidoka can rightly achieve the same dynamic with just a small movement by correctly appliying ki by extension.. and often this is knowledge which more junior students have not yet fully assimilated...

Me? well I am happy with either but I will admit most days I like to EXAGGERATE the movements RIGHT out and just throw everyone around, ha!

Hope this is relevant even a little?

btw your instructor sounds like a right laugh.. that would be fun I think!

oh yes as someone said Hapkido and Aikido have their shared roots in DRAJJ but developed along different paths in different places.. not maybe predecessor successor but rather branches of the same tree..

Be good,
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[matt.m]

Patrick,

Choi and Uesheba learned the same Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu from Takeda. They were classmates. So it all comes down into how you translate the move. Look man, when you said Aikido was the predecessor to hapkido it is not a true statement. What would be an accurate statement is that Aikido and Hapkido are sister arts to each other.

Now, onto the question of circles and the use of rechanneling energy etc. When you are learning something for the first time or getting a review from your instructor in hapkido class he may overexaggerate the circular motion of the technique to reinforce the fact that it is a full circle move. I have noticed myself that if I am not paying attention that sometimes I will cut the circle movement short, therefore not having as effective a technique.

I have worked with an Aikido 5th dan in St. Louis for a day. He and I went through the 25 son mok soo of hapkido as taught in Moo Sul Kwan hapkido's cirriculum. I wanted to see the Aikido variation done as it is taught by him. They are the same in application. Same pattern movement, same circular motion etc.

I know there are variations of Aikido, just like there are variations of Hapkido. I will give you a great example of variation to technique as well.

On #1 son mok soo (Wrist techniques) there is two ways to do it. #1 would be done in one aspect for the self-defense/street aspect. The other way would be for demo and not at full speed for the purpose of "I like my partner, therefore I am being nice." Same technique, just done minutely different. Make no mistake, both variations hurt like hell and are quite effective.

All 25 of the wrist and 25 clothes techniques are taught in Moo Sul Kwan in this fashion.

 

[matt.m]

The circle should be only as big as it needs to be. That's a bit cryptic I know but what I'm saying there is that there are times when the energy being given from uke demands a larger circle for redirection and other times a small circle will do. As with everything in aikido it comes back to a balance of things. If we get hung up on "only small" or "only large" then we hamper our ability to flow with the energy at hand.

Very well said.:asian:

 

[pstarr]

Many years ago a well-known martial arts publication interviewed an old man who had been one of O'Sensei's uchi-deshi. The interviewer asked about the essence of aikido (technique). The old man said, "You must take that which is large and make it very small."

The interviewer didn't understand the answer at all and quickly concluded the interview. What a pity! The old man had just given him the secret to real technique...