Application first and solo form later

[Kung Fu Wang]

I strongly dislike some MA training order with solo form first (punch/kick into the thin air) and application later.

Since the virus, I start to teach Miao Diao (2 hands long knife). I start to teach partner drills first. later on, when students link partner drills into sequence, they will get the solo form.

But most MA teachers just jump into solo form without going through the partner drills first. IMO, this kind of teaching is totally in the wrong order.

No matter what MA style that you are teaching, you should always start from partner drills first (similar to this clip).

Your thought?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I strongly dislike some MA training order with solo form first (punch/kick into the thin air) and application later.

Since the virus, I start to teach Miao Diao (2 hands long knife). I start to teach partner drills first. later on, when students link partner drills into sequence, they will get the solo form.

But most MA teachers just jump into solo form without going through the partner drills first. IMO, this kind of teaching is totally in the wrong order.

No matter what MA style that you are teaching, you should always start from partner drills first (similar to this clip).

Your thought?

My thoughts are slightly different. Applications can be explained while learning the form I think there are sometimes benefits where showing the application first helps the students to understand what they are doing and the motion that that should make. Other times I think doing the form first is better. I'm basing this on personal experience where I've shown students the applications and their brains can't process the movement. When stuff like that happen then I break down the movement into smaller piece which makes it easier for their brain to process it. When I watch the video clip, my brain processes the first technique. But it doesn't process the second technique at all. The movement is foreign to me. I wouldn't be able to produce that second technique without first breaking the technique.

I don't think it's any different than most things in life. Sometimes it's good to do things a certain way and sometimes it's not.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I strongly dislike some MA training order with solo form first (punch/kick into the thin air) and application later.

Since the virus, I start to teach Miao Diao (2 hands long knife). I start to teach partner drills first. later on, when students link partner drills into sequence, they will get the solo form.

But most MA teachers just jump into solo form without going through the partner drills first. IMO, this kind of teaching is totally in the wrong order.

No matter what MA style that you are teaching, you should always start from partner drills first (similar to this clip).

Your thought?

 

[isshinryuronin]

That is how it was done in the old days of karate (1800"s Okinawa). Kata evolved from a series of 2 man drills sharing a particular theme grouped together. Themes could be close combat, grabs, evasion, takedowns, striking, and so on. This was lost in the early 1900's when karate was introduced into the school system and the focus changed from combat to exercise and sport. Form over function took over for the most part.

Like you, I am giving more attention to the application of the techniques before I introduce them in the kata. This is opposite to what has become conventional practice. I think this breathes new life into the forms and increased understanding which will result in increased performance in kata execution. I will agree with JowGa Wolf that this may be too complicated for some students. Either way can, and has worked, but I'm leaning back to the original method of the masters of two man drills and application first, and forms second, while retaining some flexibility in the teaching method based on ability and rank.

 

[Headhunter]

There’s no right or wrong order. It’s just preference either way it works out exactly the same

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've shown students the applications and their brains can't process the movement.

I have issue with the other way around.

Without understanding the application, this solo form can confuse students big time. Without explaining the application first, there is no way that students will know what they are doing.

After students have learned the application, the solo form will make sense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I strongly dislike some MA training order with solo form first (punch/kick into the thin air) and application later.

Since the virus, I start to teach Miao Diao (2 hands long knife). I start to teach partner drills first. later on, when students link partner drills into sequence, they will get the solo form.

But most MA teachers just jump into solo form without going through the partner drills first. IMO, this kind of teaching is totally in the wrong order.

No matter what MA style that you are teaching, you should always start from partner drills first (similar to this clip).

Your thought?

I agree on open-hand work. With weapons, I’m ambivalent. If the forms are used to help build familiarity with moving and handling the weapon (rather than to teach specific technique), form-first can serve.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My thoughts are slightly different. Applications can be explained while learning the form I think there are sometimes benefits where showing the application first helps the students to understand what they are doing and the motion that that should make. Other times I think doing the form first is better. I'm basing this on personal experience where I've shown students the applications and their brains can't process the movement. When stuff like that happen then I break down the movement into smaller piece which makes it easier for their brain to process it. When I watch the video clip, my brain processes the first technique. But it doesn't process the second technique at all. The movement is foreign to me. I wouldn't be able to produce that second technique without first breaking the technique.

I don't think it's any different than most things in life. Sometimes it's good to do things a certain way and sometimes it's not.

I think John is talking about from the start. If someone doesn’t know how to do a kick, a form seems the wrong place to start. Same for a kick. If they have the basic movement, the explaining the application while teaching the form probably works.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That is how it was done in the old days of karate (1800"s Okinawa).

In China, during the Ming dynasty (1400), there were very few MA solo forms created. During the Qing dynasty (1640), the solo form was emphasized and taught first because:

- Government tries to de-emphasize MA application (weak people are easier to be controlled).
- Teachers are not willing to teach the true application.
- Teachers don't understand the application themselves.
- People over emphasize health, self-cultivation, inner peace, performance, ...
- ...

 

[yak sao]

Why not teach them simutaneously?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why not teach them simutaneously?

Even if you teach one after the other, you still have to decide which one to teach first.

If you teach this solo drill first, without understanding the application, will students be able to know what they are doing?

 

[Headhunter]

Well I’ve always learned the movements first and that’s how I’ve always taught it and no one has ever been confused at all about it

 

[geezer]

I think it depends on what you are teaching. In Wing Chun, we start with the opening sequence of the form which teaches stance, posture, structure and so on. Since our way of doing these is rather unique, it helps to isolate the movements. As far as application goes, That's easy. Most everybody knows that if you don't stand, you fall down!

In the same lesson we also begin stepping drills, chain punching and so on. From then on we switch back and forth between form/solo practice and paired drills that cover application. I believe switching back and forth is usually the best course of action. Although TBH, after the basics are covered, I prefer to spend more time on paired drills. That's where you learn to make things work.

I've had instructors obsess over details in forms, only to find that some of the very same students who are careless about some of the picky points are the most successful in application. This is not to say that they lack finesse, but that they are focusing more on the aspects that really matter. You need to work applications with a partner to learn that. And sometimes, with a stubborn and uncooperative partner.

 

[Graywalker]

Interesting subject, at my school we do a Show, Shadow, do method of teaching forms.

We show the first movement.
Then shadow the student.
And last, we do the application.

It seems, to work out pretty well and the students understand the form while learning it.

 

[Danny T]

I tend to demonstrate an example of the goal of a technique "This is what we are going to be working to be able to accomplish." Then I break it down to the fundamentals we will be using for those who are beginners to work on. Intermediates well be working of other aspects while advance practitioners may be working on different variations of the technique along with counters and re-counters.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have issue with the other way around.

Without understanding the application, this solo form can confuse students big time. Without explaining the application first, there is no way that students will know what they are doing.

After students have learned the application, the solo form will make sense.

Yeah there will be exceptions on both sides. For the video you showed I would need to see what is going on. More specific to the video for a technique like that I would not only need to see it, I would have to have it done to me. By experiencing it, I will have a better idea of how I'm trying to place my leg behind my opponent. For other people they may not be interested knowing how to apply a technique. They may just want to just do the form/kata/ or movement. Tai Chi is a good example of that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Wing Chun, we start with the opening sequence of the form which teaches stance, posture, structure and so on.

In long fist, we start with solo form too.

In the following clips, the upward block is the 1st move of the 1st long fist form that I (also all students from the Chinese Central Goushu Institute in Nanking 1928) have learned.

When I learned the solo form first, I learned it as an upward block. Later on when I learned application, we changed it into side way block.

This is the problem to learn form first and application later. If a form was created incorrectly, even the best MA teacher would have problem to explain the correct application to his students.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One day I just try to prove my theory (teach solo drill first is not a good idea). I taught this solo drill without explaining the application. None of my students knew what I was doing.

 

[geezer]

This is the problem to learn form first and application later. If a form was created incorrectly, even the best MA teacher would have problem to explain the correct application to his students.

The problem with this logic as applied to Wing Chun's forms is that each movement, or group of movements typically has more to do with things like structure, position, kinetic linkages and perhaps concepts rather than specific applications. We sometimes take a piece of a form and explore how the positions enable a variety of applications. That is why three, short empty handed forms and the dummy-set are sufficient to lay the foundation of the system.

Long fist and other complex systems seem to have a more one-to-one connection between each unit of a form and a specific application. Consequently, they often have many long, complicated forms.

One of my great dissatisfactions with my lineage of Wing Chun (coming out of "WT") is that, while still sticking with the 3 basic forms and dummy set, they have expanded their chi-sau training to include a nearly endless number of paired sets. This endless series of "Chi-Sau Sections" is memorized and practiced like so many two-man forms. I have neither the patience, the memory, nor the access to a group of high-level training partners to maintain that amount of rote learning. And besides, I feel it is contrary to the essence of WC which I feel should be simple, spontaneous and direct.

So, I feel that training an endless number of very specific applications, each only applicable in a particular context is huge part of the problem, whether you do that training starting with forms or starting with paired drills.

IMO, WC, as well as any other art I've been exposed to, is most effective when it evolves beyond a collection of techniques and applications and you internalize it as a way of moving ....one that you can freely adapt to the situation at hand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

they have expanded their chi-sau training to include a nearly endless number of paired sets.

The same issue also exist in the SC (Chinese wrestling) system. The basic foot sweep are only:

1. Sweep behind ankle.
2. Sweep in front of instep.

But there are more than 35 different ways (almost endless number) to set it up. Even just the foot sweep, it will require a lot of training time. When you learn foot sweep, you have to learn many other throws too. If foot sweep in your general, you will need a lot of soldiers to support it.

1. Knee seize, sweep
2. Outer hook, sweep
3. Diagonal cut, sweep
4. Reverse shin bite, sweep
5. Scoop kick, sweep
6. Leg spring, sweep
7. ...