Anyone To-Shin Do?

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lalom

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Maybe I am to new to this? What is Ninjutsu and what is not? When firearms were introduced to Japan did the people way back when say "That is not Ninjutsu put the gun down?"

If using the 'element approach' fits in my head and I learn easier using this method then I guess this is the method I will study. If you learn better using another method then good for you!

If you could help me out a bit, since you seem to have been doing this longer then me, could you give us all the list of what is Ninjutsu and what is not? This would really help a lot of us!!!

SKB,

There is no point to your request of Saru1968. You are not going to get the answer you want to hear. Better to simply keep training in what you have found to be the best method of learning for you. That's all that really matters anyhow.
 

SKB

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lalom,

I know the question can not be answered in any way which would work for everyone on here! People would fight over everything on the list. That was the point. You really can not label the 'art'.

SOOOOOOOO if in the end we each train in what is suited to the person, what is point of arguing over it? If we are all heading in the same direction should we not be trying to help each other get to the same point? Instead of telling some folks they are not even on the path?

By the way, I find this forum discussion interesting.
 
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lalom,

I know the question can not be answered in any way which would work for everyone on here! People would fight over everything on the list. That was the point. You really can not label the 'art'.

SOOOOOOOO if in the end we each train in what is suited to the person, what is point of arguing over it? If we are all heading in the same direction should we not be trying to help each other get to the same point? Instead of telling some folks they are not even on the path?

By the way, I find this forum discussion interesting.

In everything you do in life, including training in To-Shin do, we'll have those that disagree with our intent and/or methodology. That is there perogative. I agree with you in that we should all be trying to help each other get to the same destination. However, that is lofty to think that to be realistic if those others don't feel the same way. I guess my point is that spending energy trying to convince the world of what we consider legitimate or even the same as theirs, whatever theirs might be, is futile and no progress will be made. Instead, use that energy to find cohesion with others of like precious faith, and move forward with synergy.

I wish there was a way to keep those naysayers out of this forum, but then that too, is lofty. Best just to keep training!
 

bydand

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lalom,

I know the question can not be answered in any way which would work for everyone on here! People would fight over everything on the list. That was the point. You really can not label the 'art'.

SOOOOOOOO if in the end we each train in what is suited to the person, what is point of arguing over it? If we are all heading in the same direction should we not be trying to help each other get to the same point? Instead of telling some folks they are not even on the path?

By the way, I find this forum discussion interesting.

In everything you do in life, including training in To-Shin do, we'll have those that disagree with our intent and/or methodology. That is there perogative. I agree with you in that we should all be trying to help each other get to the same destination. However, that is lofty to think that to be realistic if those others don't feel the same way. I guess my point is that spending energy trying to convince the world of what we consider legitimate or even the same as theirs, whatever theirs might be, is futile and no progress will be made. Instead, use that energy to find cohesion with others of like precious faith, and move forward with synergy.

I wish there was a way to keep those naysayers out of this forum, but then that too, is lofty. Best just to keep training!


I look at this issue a bit differently. I started Bujinkan and when SKH began the Quest Centers and To-Shin Do the school I trained in stayed with him and made the switch. I trusted and liked my Instructors so I stayed with the school and them. At first there was zero change, but after taking a break for a bit (Family and kids) when I came back to training, there are some minor differences. As this is just a couple of schools I am aware of their training practice right now, and they are linked quite closely I cannot tell you if these changes are To-Shin Do wide or if it is training methods the head Instructor picked up on his training trips to Japan. If you mean the final destination is Self-Defense then yes I'll totally agree that we are all headed for the same destination. As for being on the same path, no we are not. Bujinkan travels a slightly different path than To-Shin Do does. Does it make either of the groups "wrong"? Not really, just slightly different. It is like a freeway system coming into a major city, not everybody comes from the same freeway (thank you God!) to get to the same place. Freeways branch off each other and while traveling the same direction, take a different route. Same as Ninjutsu has done over the years from what I can gather. Forgive me in advance as I am going to kill the spelling of these names. Manaka, Tanamura, and SKH were all students of Hatsumi Soke. Hatsumi, I would look at as the main road with the other men being alternate routes. Is one "better" than the others? For their students, yes. In the grand scheme of life? probably too close to call a clear "best of show." To compound this, each "route" has schools that are not exactly equal to each other. Are all Bujinkan schools exactly the same? No. Are all Jinekan schools exactly the same, no again. What about Genbukan schools? Nope. And I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all To-Shin Do schools are not the same, they were not the same when they switched to SKH's Quest Center. I did travel a bit a visited some of the schools back when the change was taking place and found a big difference between schools. All of this is due to the different Instructors and the interaction of the students within the school.

We are not going down the exact same path, similer but not the same. For one to try and convince the others we are the same is not even realistic. Find what works the best for you and is YOUR best path and follow it. That is what I did, and that is what every MA's who has been around a bit has done. Will you agree with me? Probably not, but that is OK too. I'm not going to try to change peoples minds, kind of hard to do over a forum, shoot it is hard to do in person :).
 

saru1968

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In everything you do in life, including training in To-Shin do, we'll have those that disagree with our intent and/or methodology.



NO, your missing the point.

Anyone is free to train how they wish in what ever org they are in.

My point was simple, clarification. The SKH Godai 'Elements' was something he 'created' not something that was taught to him by Hatsumi Sensei.

So as a teaching/understanding tool, not a problem but just be aware of where it came from and where it did not.

Its part of Toshindo but never been a part of Ninjutsu/Bujinkan

No need to get bent out of shape about it, alot of misconceptions over the years, same as the ninja-to.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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I look at this issue a bit differently. I started Bujinkan and when SKH began the Quest Centers and To-Shin Do the school I trained in stayed with him and made the switch. I trusted and liked my Instructors so I stayed with the school and them. At first there was zero change, but after taking a break for a bit (Family and kids) when I came back to training, there are some minor differences. As this is just a couple of schools I am aware of their training practice right now, and they are linked quite closely I cannot tell you if these changes are To-Shin Do wide or if it is training methods the head Instructor picked up on his training trips to Japan. If you mean the final destination is Self-Defense then yes I'll totally agree that we are all headed for the same destination. As for being on the same path, no we are not. Bujinkan travels a slightly different path than To-Shin Do does. Does it make either of the groups "wrong"? Not really, just slightly different. It is like a freeway system coming into a major city, not everybody comes from the same freeway (thank you God!) to get to the same place. Freeways branch off each other and while traveling the same direction, take a different route. Same as Ninjutsu has done over the years from what I can gather. Forgive me in advance as I am going to kill the spelling of these names. Manaka, Tanamura, and SKH were all students of Hatsumi Soke. Hatsumi, I would look at as the main road with the other men being alternate routes. Is one "better" than the others? For their students, yes. In the grand scheme of life? probably too close to call a clear "best of show." To compound this, each "route" has schools that are not exactly equal to each other. Are all Bujinkan schools exactly the same? No. Are all Jinekan schools exactly the same, no again. What about Genbukan schools? Nope. And I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all To-Shin Do schools are not the same, they were not the same when they switched to SKH's Quest Center. I did travel a bit a visited some of the schools back when the change was taking place and found a big difference between schools. All of this is due to the different Instructors and the interaction of the students within the school.

We are not going down the exact same path, similer but not the same. For one to try and convince the others we are the same is not even realistic. Find what works the best for you and is YOUR best path and follow it. That is what I did, and that is what every MA's who has been around a bit has done. Will you agree with me? Probably not, but that is OK too. I'm not going to try to change peoples minds, kind of hard to do over a forum, shoot it is hard to do in person :).


Nice post Scott!
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Different paths that may lead to a great final destination if you train hard and learn the right lessons.
 

bydand

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NO, your missing the point.

Anyone is free to train how they wish in what ever org they are in.

My point was simple, clarification. The SKH Godai 'Elements' was something he 'created' not something that was taught to him by Hatsumi Sensei.

So as a teaching/understanding tool, not a problem but just be aware of where it came from and where it did not.

Its part of Toshindo but never been a part of Ninjutsu/Bujinkan

No need to get bent out of shape about it, alot of misconceptions over the years, same as the ninja-to.

Agree 100%

Teaching tool, or learning tool it does the job of helping people remember the basic movement by linking them to different things everybody can relate to.
 

bydand

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Nice post Scott!
icon14.gif
Different paths that may lead to a great final destination if you train hard and learn the right lessons.

OK, you said the same thing in one line it took me a small novel to say. I may have to work on streamlining my posts. :)
 
OP
lalom

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Agree 100%

Teaching tool, or learning tool it does the job of helping people remember the basic movement by linking them to different things everybody can relate to.

Yes. The godai is a teaching tool that SKH uses to share the principles. Not that he created the godai. Just that he uses it as a skeleton to teach what he learned from Hatsumi Soke.
 

saru1968

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Yes. The godai is a teaching tool that SKH uses to share the principles. Not that he created the godai. Just that he uses it as a skeleton to teach what he learned from Hatsumi Soke.


SKH did create the elemental approach of the 'Godai' ie the breathing and the mindset of it for a western audience.
 
OP
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The godai (elements) concept have existed long before SKH. Sorry. SKH has only used them to teach his interpretation of that Takamatsuden arts. He has associated certain aspects of training to these elements. The elements even exist in the Bujinkan art. Just not used as a teaching tool in any way similar to what To-Shin Do does. Of course, unless, you Bujinkan schools are using the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.
 

saru1968

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. Just not used as a teaching tool in any way similar to what To-Shin Do does. Of course, unless, you Bujinkan schools are using the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum.


Actually i do know of two Bujinkan Dojos in the Uk that use the SKH elemental approach.

But the Godai 'breathing' and 'elements' mindset as presented by SKH is his creation and NEVER was Bujinkan material.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27322&page=2

As for the godai, the godai as presented and taught by Hayes is not the way it has ever been in Japan. Just because there is sui no kata does not mean that there is a 'Water style technique.'


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27322&page=4

Again, the stuff that you are talking about, 'wind techniques', Mikkyo religious exercises, etc never existed in the training in Japan. They were added by Hayes to the stuff he does. I know this because I listen to my teachers here in Japan and can't find any reference to them doing "fire stances" and the like in any Japanese source.


Boil it down and you see that Hayes is saying that despite the fact that the Japanese wanted the art taught in a certain way, Hayes decided that he had too much invested in his own way of teaching to listen much. There was no Go-dai as he taught it being taught in Japan, and rather than drop it- he continued it.

So you can see that from a very early time, Hayes had decided to go his own way rather than try to follow the way things were done in Japan as closely as possible.

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http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27322&page=5

You are correct Don. In all the years I have been here Sensei has never talked about the feelings of Earth, Wind, and what ever. That is part of Mikkyo training though. Once when asked about this Sensei said "If you want to study that go to a Mikkyo priest and study that. I teach Budo." The only feeling that Sensei talks about with us is the Kukan. Kukan losely translated is Void, but that is not acurate either. We have been trying for years to translate that properly.
 
OP
lalom

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Okay. I guess we're both saying the same thing. My point is that the godai has existed prior to SKH. He merely adapted it to transfer the principles of his taijutsu. He didn't create the godai. He created the teaching model of taijutsu that uses the godai elements. Don't know if I'm saying it right.

How it is done in Japan in the Bujinkan is another thing altogether which I guess should be discussed in another forum as this is a To-Shin Do forum. References are made to the elements in Bujinkan, but SKH's use of it is completely different.
 

saru1968

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References are made to the elements in Bujinkan, but SKH's use of it is completely different.


Yep, totally agree.

I think we were just at slightly crossed wires...


I knew what i meant and so did you.

No problem.

My memories of the concept were a good teaching tool for whats its worth.
 

SKB

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Yep, totally agree.
I think we were just at slightly crossed wires...
I knew what i meant and so did you.
No problem.
My memories of the concept were a good teaching tool for whats its worth.

Should one take this to imply you beleive the 'concept' has some worth?
 

makchick

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Speaking of Any To-Shin-Do...does anyone know of anybody training in Ottawa. I know there aren't any formal Dojos around but figured there has to be someone in the area. I've trained under Brett Varnum for the past 4 years or so....just curious give me a shout at needtrainingpartner@yahoo.ca
 

saru1968

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Should one take this to imply you beleive the 'concept' has some worth?


I never had an issue of it not being of any worth, after all i spent four years of my life ingraining it into my thinking and my actions.


The only confusement for me in the past was the belief it was Bujinkan methodogy.

But as a tool/teaching aid, it works for many, many people.

Gaz.
 
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There are still a number of Bujinkan schools that use the Kasumi-An Bujinkan curriculum. It is the "elemental" teaching method and structure that SKH used while in the Bujinkan. Although he left and ultimately To-Shin Do was created, a number of his students that remained in the Bujinkan continue to use this curriculum and method to teach the Bujinkan principles.

For me I assimilate the principles easier with this method. For others they don't. To each his own...
 

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hello, this is my first post here
I don't yet but am very interested in it
I've been looking for a training partner in the dallas area for a little while
will probably do a home study course until I find someone to train with since I can't locate anyone in texas which kinda blows me away
very short background with bujinkan which i loved and am looking at restarting with them possibly as well
if anyone knows someone looking to start or already training in dallas please let me know

j. mcginn
 
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