Anthony cummings

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Has anyone here looked at Anthony Cummings' youtube channel

He seems to be quite well read in all things ninja, not sure if he actually studies ninjitsu, or maybe his interest is purely academic.

However i would be interested to hear from other
 

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Has anyone here looked at Anthony Cummings' youtube channel

He seems to be quite well read in all things ninja, not sure if he actually studies ninjitsu, or maybe his interest is purely academic.

However i would be interested to hear from other


Oh you are going to open a can of worms lol

He heads Natori Ryu (he has a channel for that to ) which he has resurrected (It was a Ryu in the Edo period) there are many varying opinions and I guess it is up to you what you believe and what you don't.

Bear in mind he is an author and you will certainly find him pushing his books ( no probs there) He is pretty forthright in his views on things and does cause much debate.

Just be careful on what you believe (not just from him btw) on the "ninja" as ummm it can cause quite a bit of heated debate
 

hoshin1600

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he has come up on threads here from time to time. the general consensus is that his views and books are not very accurate and has a lot of fantasy included passed off as truth.
 

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I got his book on the samurai and ninja, issue is only a academic can actually give a good review on a book which is claimed to be a translated scroll.

If he has actually started a re constructive ninjitsu school, i cant see any issue with it if its legit. HEMA is 100% re constructed by the instructors.
 

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I got his book on the samurai and ninja, issue is only a academic can actually give a good review on a book which is claimed to be a translated scroll.

If he has actually started a re constructive ninjitsu school, i cant see any issue with it if its legit. HEMA is 100% re constructed by the instructors.


There are issues with that Rat and there are questions over what is translation and what is interpretation or ummm I shall leave it there
 

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Has anyone here looked at Anthony Cummings' youtube channel

He seems to be quite well read in all things ninja, not sure if he actually studies ninjitsu, or maybe his interest is purely academic.

However i would be interested to hear from other


If you go to his you tube channel Natori Ryu you will get full instructions on everything from skinning a pheasant to how to draw a sword with your left hand and you will see them all jumping about doing skills in their hakama and red kegogi, tabi and straw footwear, it is certainly "interesting" (tongue in cheek) however to me it looks just plain silly more like larping (not knocking larping) and how and why anyone would or could take a well known (but extinct school) and resurrect it seems to me to be somewhat bizarre.

It could be a very very good marketing ploy as nearly all is referenced to his books. What gets me is as far as I can see or have read Natori Ryu was a school of Military Tactics (I think there may have been two at some point from what I can find out but the one they refer to is the one from the Kishu branch which I believe was part of the Tokugawa family - the guys who know more about that will give more details there) what I cannot find and I am stumped on is there does not seem to be a sword school or the like yet they are all performing sword "skills". Maybe the sword guys will have a better take on that as I don't know which sword school they are taking things from. I did hear a mention of Musashi so maybe they are taking it from there. It does to me seem very odd to try and teach and form a school from translations of scrolls (just my opinion).

I am just skeptical of that kind of thing and the whole "Ninjutsu" thing

just my take on things lol
 

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Dammit...


Godsdammit......

Has anyone here looked at Anthony Cummings' youtube channel

Yes.

He seems to be quite well read in all things ninja,

Nope.

not sure if he actually studies ninjitsu,

HA!!! Nope.

or maybe his interest is purely academic.

Ooh... nope.

However i would be interested to hear from other

Well.... we'll see about that...

Oh you are going to open a can of worms lol

Ha, yeah...

He heads Natori Ryu (he has a channel for that to ) which he has resurrected (It was a Ryu in the Edo period) there are many varying opinions and I guess it is up to you what you believe and what you don't.

Well... no. He doesn't "head" a ryu... he heads his bizarre association... and it's less a matter of what you believe, as much as how much you understand things... I'll see if I can clarify as we go...

Bear in mind he is an author and you will certainly find him pushing his books ( no probs there) He is pretty forthright in his views on things and does cause much debate.

The debate is not caused by his forthrightness, so much...

Just be careful on what you believe (not just from him btw) on the "ninja" as ummm it can cause quite a bit of heated debate

This is very true.

I got his book on the samurai and ninja, issue is only a academic can actually give a good review on a book which is claimed to be a translated scroll.

Oh, we'll cover what the issues with his work is...

If he has actually started a re constructive ninjitsu school, i cant see any issue with it if its legit. HEMA is 100% re constructed by the instructors.

There are multiple issues...

If you go to his you tube channel Natori Ryu you will get full instructions on everything from skinning a pheasant to how to draw a sword with your left hand and you will see them all jumping about doing skills in their hakama and red kegogi, tabi and straw footwear, it is certainly "interesting" (tongue in cheek) however to me it looks just plain silly more like larping (not knocking larping) and how and why anyone would or could take a well known (but extinct school) and resurrect it seems to me to be somewhat bizarre.

His reasons are quite simple, and it's all down to his ego... of course, I wouldn't suggest anything he shows are "instructions".... certainly not qualified, or accurate ones... or even safe, for that matter...

It could be a very very good marketing ploy as nearly all is referenced to his books. What gets me is as far as I can see or have read Natori Ryu was a school of Military Tactics (I think there may have been two at some point from what I can find out but the one they refer to is the one from the Kishu branch which I believe was part of the Tokugawa family - the guys who know more about that will give more details there) what I cannot find and I am stumped on is there does not seem to be a sword school or the like yet they are all performing sword "skills". Maybe the sword guys will have a better take on that as I don't know which sword school they are taking things from. I did hear a mention of Musashi so maybe they are taking it from there. It does to me seem very odd to try and teach and form a school from translations of scrolls (just my opinion).

Oh, godsdammit... no, nothing at all to do with Musashi other than his uninformed imagination...

I am just skeptical of that kind of thing and the whole "Ninjutsu" thing

just my take on things lol

Fair enough.

Okay.... the following is a somewhat potted history of Antony Cummins, including the various issues with his work. I will emphasise that everything I bring up here is factual, and said as dispassionately as possible.

To begin with, here is a summation I put together in 2011... we'll add to it in a bit:

Chris Parker said:
There's years worth of reading on Antony and the issues with his work if you're willing to put yourself through it, but the (VERY) brief version would be something like this:

Antony spent some time in what appears to be informal training with someone named Ste (Stephen) Powell, apparently an old/early student of Dennis Bartrum. This seems to have started in 1999. He later went to Japan in the mid-2000's, and as a result of what occured there he started on this whole thing.

Before going to Japan, Antony had some contact with Dennis Bartrum, including training at (most likely) two seminars some time apart. He approached Dennis at some point, and asked Dennis to "confirm" that Antony was a 4th Dan in the Bujinkan (it may be noted that Antony never paid any membership or grading fees in the organisation, claiming that "knowing that [his instructor] was his instructor was good enough"), as his instructor at the time (presumably Ste Powell) was not willing to put him forward for his Godan. Antony has painted this as him being a student of Dennis Bartrums for a decade, which Dennis denies.

When he went to Japan, Antony then apparently asked Hatsumi if he could train for free, as he was paying off his University debt and couldn't afford to train (which does beggar the question, why would you pay to go to Japan to train in a martial art if you couldn't afford to train once you were there? Of course, thinking about it now it makes sense [he was going to get his Shidoshi licence/Godan rank, and nothing else], but it does show the way he thinks about things), offering to be the "dojo b*tch" (his words, censored for context), sweeping, cleaning, in exchange for training. He was told no, so he asked if he could watch the classes, and was told that should be okay. So that is what he spent the majority of his time in Japan doing... watching, not training (interestingly, that was also the pattern he followed in England, asking to come and watch classes, not actually train in them...).

Now, if we follow Antony's explaination of things, he was "disgusted" that the dojo was not filled with "fit, hard, tough warriors", instead it had, frankly, rather average people, of average sizes, and no hugely impressive Schwarzenegers filling the room. He started to get rather disillusioned then (and if I'm reading into his mentality there, he basically went in with a whole bunch of movie fantasy [from the wizened Oriental master teaching the dedicated student for no financial benefit or cost, to his expectation that the school would be filled with macho He-Men], and that illusion is what got shattered.... and he really didn't know how to deal with it), and that's where things really started to get odd.

Antony says he got a young lady to write out a very politely phrased letter to Hatsumi, saying, in essence, that Hatsumi was a joke, the Bujinkan was a joke, that all grades should be abolished, and Hatsumi should do things Antony's way. It may be prudent to note that at this point (2004/5), Antony had been training informally (not a member of the organisation), and from all accounts sporadically (watching more than training) for all of 5 years (his subsequent attacks on the Bujinkan have shown a desperate lack of understanding of what the Bujinkan is, what it contains, and much more, to the point that he constantly seemed to equate the entire Bujinkan syllabus with Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, needing to ask on his facebook page for information on the non-Ninjutsu traditions, thinking that anything shown in the Bujinkan is claimed to be Togakure Ryu, and so on). The letter also demanded that Hatsumi meet with Antony to discuss his (Antony's) ideas and their implementation at the next training session (the following Tuesday). Antony's take on that is that he was given the cold shoulder by everyone, George Ohashi shoved a brochure in his hand which explained the problems gaijin have understanding Japanese culture and arts, and Antony's translator urged him to leave, as she "was Japanese, and could tell that things weren't good" (hmm, so Antony was offended that he was handed a document explaining the issues understanding Japanese culture, but he needed someone who was Japanese [and that was the qualification he gave] to explain to him that his completely offensive and arrogant letter was not recieved warmly? Perhaps if he had read the brochure that George had handed him....).

Next is my favourite bit. Antony then says he went away, and set fire to his gi, his belt, and all his Bujinkan certification (which would be what, exactly? Remember, even during his time in Japan, Antony states that he never paid any membership or grading fees for the Bujinkan whatsoever... so where do these Bujinkan certificates come from?). A year later, he was back in Japan, this time he says he was training with the Genbukan (so far the only evidence that has come forward is an annecdote about meeting Tanemura in his office, and having Tanemura sign a copy of Ninpo Secrets, as well as an allusion to Tanemura "threatening to cut (Antony's) head off" for some form of slight, from memory involving a bow), and he recieved a call from Dennis (who had heard that Antony was in Japan, and remembered him from the few seminars), who asked if he wanted to join Dennis at the Hombu. Antony explained that he'd need to ask George Ohashi if it was okay, did so, and came along. Dennis was unaware of anything untoward, or of Antony's supposed Genbukan training at this time. During the session, Antony remembers Hatsumi using Dennis as his Uke for the night, and at one point holding Dennis in position (painfully!), and staring daggers through Antony. His recollection of this is that every pair of eyes in the room turned to Antony, wondering who he was, and what he had done to deserve such attention! It should be noted that this is consistent with Antony's need for attention, whether good or bad, and his desire to make it, or imagine it wherever possible. For the record, Dennis' memory of that day was rather different... he basically remembers Hatsumi doing a lot of work on taking balance, but that nothing out of the ordinary happened, and there was no "moment where everyone looked at Antony".

Over the next two years, Antony set up his own martial arts school, known as the Dignity of Flying Birds, teaching what he learnt as Amatsu Taijutsu (Bujinkan with an emphasis on Amatsu Tatara, which Dennis Bartrum teaches, rather different to what may be called "mainstream" Bujinkan), and started producing books. One of the early ones was called "To Stand on a Stone", which is a narrative which explores 50 key principles inherrant in all martial arts, regardless of style. He first started peddling this tome to Western Martial Arts practitioners, particularly those practicising edged weapon work (HEMA). He approached them with the stated intent of using the book to fund his thesis on medieval martial arts (Western). He claimed to have a new way of approaching Tallhoffer swordsmanship, and was rather quickly and soundly told that he was rather ignorant of far too much to really have anything to offer there.

Next he took the book to the Ninjutsu community, saying that this book was based on his Amatsu (Bujinkan) Taijutsu training, and really started to hit his stride. He did try changing again at one point to explain to karate practitioners that the book was really about how to approach karate training (he trained for a couple of years before he was 10, and earnt a green belt.... according to his more consistent versions, that is), but was quickly laughed out of there as well. So he came back to Ninjutsu. Other books he wrote include one on Hanzo Hattori that he admitted to "researching" entirely online... and included such errors as stating that the name "Hanzo" was a title, not a name (as it was passed down in the family), completely missing the reason he was called Hanzo the Spear, and more. In short, it showed no real ability to research, especially independantly, no ability to cross-reference, no understanding of the history of Japan or it's culture, no real understanding even of naming conventions, and far more.

He then really got focused on Ninjutsu, starting with his "Shinobi Soldiers" book, website, and you-tube channel. In this he started to look at the history of the "ninja", and this is where the idea of "ninjutsu is not a martial art" started to take shape. In short, Antony's take on martial arts is very limited, to say the least (and that is despite being given broader definitions by people far more experienced, especially in Japanese martial arts, than himself), with him once stating in a video that martial arts are "what most people think of, the hitting and kicking" (while at the same time saying that people need to move beyond their common imaginings.... yet he was unable to do that himself). Add to that his habit of using a single source, or only confirmatory sources to reference and give him his ideas, and that leads to a very limited understanding of a rather broad topic. He basically got his entire understanding of what he classified as "ninjutsu" from a short interview with Otake Risuke of the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, in which the former Head Instructor gave Antony a copy of the articles he had written on TSKSR's ninjutsu section for a Japanese magazine so Antony could publish it with his Shoninki translation. Of course, the problem is that the Katori version of ninjutsu is more anti-ninjutsu, and Otake Sensei's book on his Ryu specifically states that some things considered ninjutsu in other traditions are not in his (showing differences in definitions between systems, which Antony refused to acknowledge or understand). But, suffice to say that if it didn't fit in with the Katori form of ninjutsu, according to Antony it wasn't ninjutsu... and the Katori version of ninjutsu is not their combative waza, as they cover that in the rest of the curriculum.

When it then came out that Antony was "translating" the Shoniki (and yes, that was the original claim, not Yoshie Minami, but that Antony was 'the translator of the Shoninki'... that later changed to 'the author of True Path of the Ninja'), the concerns about his ability to translate an Old Japanese document (as in written in a form not readable by modern Japanese people unless they have learnt it specifically), especially if, as it turned out, he couldn't pronounce a single word, read a modern newspaper, or even count properly. As time went on, he introduced a number of other members, most importantly Yoshie, although he never addressed her level of English, her understanding of the specific jargon and technical terminology, her ability to read Old Japanese, or anything else relevant to her being able to translate, other than to accuse anyone who asked of slurring her ability to understand Japanese. Another he introduced was a man he describes as Japan's greatest Ninja historian, a man sought out by TV shows from all around the world, a Prof. Nakashima. This was Nakashima Atsumi, the somewhat controversial head of a reconstructed Ryu-ha (the Katayama Hoki Ryu... he gained possession of some documents, and went to some members of the family [who had never practiced the art] and asked if he could revive it and become the new Soke...), who had translated the Shoninki from Old Japanese to modern Japanese a decade or so earlier. It is this version that formed the basis of Antony's version (along with one or two others, according to Antony). Sufficient to say that no-one other than Antony has ever described Nakashima as "the greatest Ninja historian in Japan", let alone as a credited one at all.

Throughout Antony's discussions and appearances on another forum, as well as with personal interactions with a number of members (including myself), Antony constantly demonstrated limited understanding of context, culture, Japan, martial arts, and far more, to the point where he would argue small details (the definition of the term "heiho", for instance, where he again took the definition from a single source, and refused to change his mind despite being given multiple contemporary references [other Ryu-ha from the same time as his source document, as well as before it and after it]). He gets an idea in his head, and stretches any link he can find until it gets to the point where it may possibly work, no matter how far he needs to stretch it in the first place. And if something (another source) goes against the way he sees things, he ignores it. He did this multiple times, even when I provided him with material that supported some of his ideas(?). When it came to his "translation", it was shown to be more of Antony putting forth his ideas and interpretations of what he wants the Shoninki to say, with no real way to discern what is his imagining or take on things, and what is actually written in the text itself. If you're buying the Shoninki, to my mind, it's nice to know which parts of the book are actually the Shoninki, not the imaginings of someone like Antony.

At present, his aim seems to be the ever-popular "let's all be friends so long as you follow what I say" plan. He's grabbing onto anyone that will follow him, no matter how ridiculous their claims are, and those with clearly fraudulant claims are grabbing onto him for the image of credibility (actual authentic historical documents! We use them, so we must be real, even if the founder couldn't find Japan on a map of, well, Japan!). This has seen him teaming up with Christa Jacobson, Choson Ninja, and a few other, uh, interesting people. He is trying to dictate how a class (in ninjutsu, not martial arts...) should be held, designing uniforms for everyone to wear, and saying that if your group is a part of his "Ichigun Ichimi" group, then you'll be far more legitimate than those people from Japan, what do they know?

This was, believe it or not, incredibly brief and missed out on quite a bit, including some very major aspects of Antony's personality, but it should be enough to get you started on an idea of where Antony is really coming from. For the record, in terms of qualifications, Antony has degrees in Theoretical Archaeology and History (Western). There is no qualification even close to resembling something that lends his work credence, no matter how much he tries to link them. Oh, and he'll say that he doesn't want to be seen as an "expert", but his behaviours go completely against that... and behaviours show the truth far more than words, honestly.

Since all of this, Antony has been putting his energies into his "Natori Ryu" endeavour... ostensibly "recreating/reconstructing" Natori Ryu based on some documents he has come across, with the blessing of the last remaining descendant of the family (who was not the last... and who didn't give any certificate conferring authority... which Antony then backed up by showing the certificate they didn't give him...?), essentially by asking a 90 year old woman if he could try to put together the information of these old scrolls...

This has taken the form of Antony basically making up a whole bunch of stuff, and passing it off as legitimate information... it's not. Much of the "martial arts" he shows is deeply flawed to the point of being dangerous... and his lack of affinity with the culture and language of Japan means that the non-martial information is also deeply flawed.

Acknowledging that this forum has a "no fraud busting" clause... I offer the following (and the previous) in the interest of hearing out the criticisms against Cummins... I do advise putting in your own research if you can and are interested in this area:

Antony Cummins is a FRAUD
Antony Cummins is Dangerous - What can be done about this?
Antony Cummins Cannot Teach

Believe me when I say there is much more to say, but it does veer into personal and personality areas... which is valid in regards to his position as a "teacher" of any sort... but the simple facts of his history, I feel, should be enough to allow people to make a judgement as to whether you feel he is a reputable source for information.
 

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Dammit...



Godsdammit......



Yes.



Nope.



HA!!! Nope.



Ooh... nope.



Well.... we'll see about that...



Ha, yeah...



Well... no. He doesn't "head" a ryu... he heads his bizarre association... and it's less a matter of what you believe, as much as how much you understand things... I'll see if I can clarify as we go...



The debate is not caused by his forthrightness, so much...



This is very true.



Oh, we'll cover what the issues with his work is...



There are multiple issues...



His reasons are quite simple, and it's all down to his ego... of course, I wouldn't suggest anything he shows are "instructions".... certainly not qualified, or accurate ones... or even safe, for that matter...



Oh, godsdammit... no, nothing at all to do with Musashi other than his uninformed imagination...



Fair enough.

Okay.... the following is a somewhat potted history of Antony Cummins, including the various issues with his work. I will emphasise that everything I bring up here is factual, and said as dispassionately as possible.

To begin with, here is a summation I put together in 2011... we'll add to it in a bit:



Since all of this, Antony has been putting his energies into his "Natori Ryu" endeavour... ostensibly "recreating/reconstructing" Natori Ryu based on some documents he has come across, with the blessing of the last remaining descendant of the family (who was not the last... and who didn't give any certificate conferring authority... which Antony then backed up by showing the certificate they didn't give him...?), essentially by asking a 90 year old woman if he could try to put together the information of these old scrolls...

This has taken the form of Antony basically making up a whole bunch of stuff, and passing it off as legitimate information... it's not. Much of the "martial arts" he shows is deeply flawed to the point of being dangerous... and his lack of affinity with the culture and language of Japan means that the non-martial information is also deeply flawed.

Acknowledging that this forum has a "no fraud busting" clause... I offer the following (and the previous) in the interest of hearing out the criticisms against Cummins... I do advise putting in your own research if you can and are interested in this area:

Antony Cummins is a FRAUD
Antony Cummins is Dangerous - What can be done about this?
Antony Cummins Cannot Teach

Believe me when I say there is much more to say, but it does veer into personal and personality areas... which is valid in regards to his position as a "teacher" of any sort... but the simple facts of his history, I feel, should be enough to allow people to make a judgement as to whether you feel he is a reputable source for information.


I was being tongue in cheek saying what I did

Can I ask what school of the sword did the Natori family he claims his well claims his I'm struggling for the word lol study ?

I know zero of his background until you provided an insight but I did think it very strange how he has gone about things as would a family actually hand over a school to a westerner ?
 

Chris Parker

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I was being tongue in cheek saying what I did

Ha, yeah, I got that...

Can I ask what school of the sword did the Natori family he claims his well claims his I'm struggling for the word lol study ?

None.

The Natori Ryu is a later name attributed to what was known as the Kishu Ryu (this is linked in with the history of Togakure Ryu, as well as being linked to the Kii family affiliated with the Tokugawa)... and, while there is a biken (sword) syllabus for Togakure Ryu, the material Cummins is presenting is based in pretty much no actual training, skill, knowledge, or anything else... other than deeply flawed understandings and misinterpretations of some passages and comments in the scrolls. The links I provided cover much of that.

I know zero of his background until you provided an insight but I did think it very strange how he has gone about things as would a family actually hand over a school to a westerner ?

Look at it this way... a 90-something year old woman is approached by a young Westerner who seems rather interested in her family and it's legacy (when there has been no interest shown previously), asking permission to use the family name to promote the legacy of her ancestors... she doesn't know him, good or bad, but knows that he's showing interest in something that no-one else is... and seems to have some "credibility", at least as far as he claims. She isn't "handing over" a school, as it doesn't exist anymore... she's just saying "yes, you can use the name for your work"... in a similar sense, Nakashima Atsumi, one of the early associates of Cummins (it was his modern Japanese translation of the original Shoninki text that Cummins' group was translating), a practitioner of a number of systems himself, went to a branch of the Katayama family to gain permission to re-establish Katayama Hoki Ryu Jujutsu, based on his other training and some scrolls he had purchased... the problem, of course, is that the Hoki Ryu Jujutsu wasn't actually extinct... they're not a fan of his work, to say the least...
 

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Ha, yeah, I got that...



None.

The Natori Ryu is a later name attributed to what was known as the Kishu Ryu (this is linked in with the history of Togakure Ryu, as well as being linked to the Kii family affiliated with the Tokugawa)... and, while there is a biken (sword) syllabus for Togakure Ryu, the material Cummins is presenting is based in pretty much no actual training, skill, knowledge, or anything else... other than deeply flawed understandings and misinterpretations of some passages and comments in the scrolls. The links I provided cover much of that.



Look at it this way... a 90-something year old woman is approached by a young Westerner who seems rather interested in her family and it's legacy (when there has been no interest shown previously), asking permission to use the family name to promote the legacy of her ancestors... she doesn't know him, good or bad, but knows that he's showing interest in something that no-one else is... and seems to have some "credibility", at least as far as he claims. She isn't "handing over" a school, as it doesn't exist anymore... she's just saying "yes, you can use the name for your work"... in a similar sense, Nakashima Atsumi, one of the early associates of Cummins (it was his modern Japanese translation of the original Shoninki text that Cummins' group was translating), a practitioner of a number of systems himself, went to a branch of the Katayama family to gain permission to re-establish Katayama Hoki Ryu Jujutsu, based on his other training and some scrolls he had purchased... the problem, of course, is that the Hoki Ryu Jujutsu wasn't actually extinct... they're not a fan of his work, to say the least...


I get your meaning

Thanks I'll read what you suggested
 

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Antony Cummings is, at best, controversial. Even folks who disagree (sometimes vehemently) agree that he lacks any background to do what he claims. Personally, if you're going to claim to be a researcher, maybe you ought to be able to read and write the language the material is coming from...

For a different source, you might look into what a gentleman by the name of Don Roley, who speaks Japanese fluently and spent many years in Japan, often serving as a primary English translator for Hatsumi and who has a few translations from Japanese under his belt, has to say... Rantings and Ravings
 

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Small notes for clarification... no matter what I think of him, Antony does deserve the respect of getting his name right... it's Antony Cummins, not Anthony Cummings... by the same token, for those playing along at home, the correct spelling is "ninjutsu", rather than "ninjitsu"... there are reasons, but suffice to know that one is correct, the other, not.
 

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Small notes for clarification... no matter what I think of him, Antony does deserve the respect of getting his name right... it's Antony Cummins, not Anthony Cummings... by the same token, for those playing along at home, the correct spelling is "ninjutsu", rather than "ninjitsu"... there are reasons, but suffice to know that one is correct, the other, not.

I do know that lol I mean the jutsu lol...his name I will leave to him lol

Ok you quoted Hatsumi so I gotta ask your opinion (trying to be tactful ) does he hold the scrolls he has claimed and does the lineage stand up (Takematsu)
 

Chris Parker

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Hmm... tactful... ha, okay...

Hatsumi has a very extensive library of many scrolls and documents pertaining to a huge number of schools, ryu-ha, and skill sets... however much of the documentation he received from Takamatsu that have been publicly shown appear to be from Takamatsu himself (in other words, not old documents). That's not really an issue... scrolls are written on paper, after all, and don't necessarily last forever... so it's not uncommon for documents to be newly written (or rewritten) for each generation... There have been claims and reports from certain factions that he has older documents pertaining to the schools he teaches, but for all intents and purposes, they are not publicly acknowledged.

He also has a large collection of materials relating to schools he has no connection to... which has lead to certain claims being made which are, honestly, somewhat questionable... and this is not getting into the area of the validity of the scrolls we know of... but, as you said, tactful here...

As far as the lineage and their claims, it's quite a complicated question... for one thing, we have 9 separate lineages being claimed... for another, it's been widely understood (and known, and accepted) that many of the lineage/historical claims are not historically accurate... even contradicting known and established Japanese history in places... and the only thing that can be said for absolute certainty is that Hatsumi did learn from Takamatsu, and was given the position of Soke for a number of lineages... exactly what those lineages are is another question...
 

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Hmm... tactful... ha, okay...

Hatsumi has a very extensive library of many scrolls and documents pertaining to a huge number of schools, ryu-ha, and skill sets... however much of the documentation he received from Takamatsu that have been publicly shown appear to be from Takamatsu himself (in other words, not old documents). That's not really an issue... scrolls are written on paper, after all, and don't necessarily last forever... so it's not uncommon for documents to be newly written (or rewritten) for each generation... There have been claims and reports from certain factions that he has older documents pertaining to the schools he teaches, but for all intents and purposes, they are not publicly acknowledged.

He also has a large collection of materials relating to schools he has no connection to... which has lead to certain claims being made which are, honestly, somewhat questionable... and this is not getting into the area of the validity of the scrolls we know of... but, as you said, tactful here...

As far as the lineage and their claims, it's quite a complicated question... for one thing, we have 9 separate lineages being claimed... for another, it's been widely understood (and known, and accepted) that many of the lineage/historical claims are not historically accurate... even contradicting known and established Japanese history in places... and the only thing that can be said for absolute certainty is that Hatsumi did learn from Takamatsu, and was given the position of Soke for a number of lineages... exactly what those lineages are is another question...

Ok I get the meaning and your wording
 

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