Another Vile Incident

James Kovacich said:
You say that but you've also said it's not your job to "protect and serve." I applaud anyone who is willing to help others but I think it's rediculous to expect ordinary citizens to "pick up the slack" when it comes to crime fighting. A lady did try and stop the 1st carjacking and she was shot 4 times. The only reason she survived was because she "played dead."

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Its not my job to protect anyone. It was at one time but due to lawsuits from when we didn't get there in time and the families sued. Claiming we failed to protect their loved ones. I'll protect anyone and everyone I can because its the right thing to do but its not my job and I make no promise to do it.
I've never said its any bystanders responsibility to pick up the slack. But there are people out there that would do that and by limiting their ability with bad gun laws is wrong.
There are lots of folks that will help others, you may not be one and that's fine that's your right but thankfully more people will help then would just sit by and watch.
 
In my opinion, the issue has nothing to do with gun laws. The real issue is why are there so many nut cases that want to shoot random people? Why are we not educating people on how to properly teach their children to respect others? Why are we not spending more trying to help these obviously insane people before they take their dive off the deep end? Why is so much of the country interested in shouting useless political rhetoric at each other, but nobody is bothering to address the root problem?

These are the issues that need to be addressed, in my opinion.
 
pgsmith said:
In my opinion, the issue has nothing to do with gun laws. The real issue is why are there so many nut cases that want to shoot random people? Why are we not educating people on how to properly teach their children to respect others? Why are we not spending more trying to help these obviously insane people before they take their dive off the deep end? Why is so much of the country interested in shouting useless political rhetoric at each other, but nobody is bothering to address the root problem?

These are the issues that need to be addressed, in my opinion.
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I agree to an extent. Nailing down the actual root problem is easier said than done, and I would suspect that most people believe they are addressing the "root" issue, if asked.

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A couple of things.
Some people in this country seem to want "our" country to be the only country (that I know of) in the world to allow people to carry guns and act as crusaders.

While at the same time these shooting sprees seem to be for the most part an American thing committed by Americans against Americans...

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ballen0351 said:
Its not my job to protect anyone. It was at one time but due to lawsuits from when we didn't get there in time and the families sued. Claiming we failed to protect their loved ones. I'll protect anyone and everyone I can because its the right thing to do but its not my job and I make no promise to do it.
I've never said its any bystanders responsibility to pick up the slack. But there are people out there that would do that and by limiting their ability with bad gun laws is wrong.
There are lots of folks that will help others, you may not be one and that's fine that's your right but thankfully more people will help then would just sit by and watch.
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I never said I wasn't one to help. I said why should the public be expected to serve when that is not the duty of the police.

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Given that we are not issued at birth with our own personal policeman (and never have been in any culture at any time) law enforcement is much more a construct of 'peer pressure' and social norms than it is of the courts and the 'long arm of the law'. More crime is prevented by the public than the police; it has always been that way.

When you have a society with widespread access to firearms and also a sub-culture wherein lethal violence is an accepted way of resolving issues then you are going to have problems. The guns cannot be magicked away and even if they could be temporarily removed from the continental USA it would be a matter of hours before more came in (to the hands of criminals) from elsewhere. So the only path towards ameliorating the use of lethal force in a social context is to alter the society.

How you do that is problematic because the States has wed itself to the somewhat nihilistic concept of unregulated capitalism and that inevitably gives you a medieval inequality in outcomes, which in turn leads to those at the bottom, with little hope of legitimately improving their lot, turning to the criminal path. Prosperity and relative equality are important attributes of a safe and peaceful society; debt and outrageous inequity leads to violence.

The cure for violent crime is not in gun legislation, it is in overturning the ludicrous financial system and constraining the freedom of capital with a few moral guidelines.
 
James Kovacich said:
I never said I wasn't one to help. I said why should the public be expected to serve when that is not the duty of the police.

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Has nothing to do with what the police can and can't do. Its about doing what's right. There are millions of people not police that will step up and get involved. Attitudes like yours ate what wrong with this country. The "why should I help". Its none if my business, blah blah blah. I think people should be looking out for each other and helping each other out. I see this guy shooting up cars I'm going after him and hope others help me.
 
Sukerkin said:
Given that we are not issued at birth with our own personal policeman (and never have been in any culture at any time) law enforcement is much more a construct of 'peer pressure' and social norms than it is of the courts and the 'long arm of the law'. More crime is prevented by the public than the police; it has always been that way.

When you have a society with widespread access to firearms and also a sub-culture wherein lethal violence is an accepted way of resolving issues then you are going to have problems. The guns cannot be magicked away and even if they could be temporarily removed from the continental USA it would be a matter of hours before more came in (to the hands of criminals) from elsewhere. So the only path towards ameliorating the use of lethal force in a social context is to alter the society.

How you do that is problematic because the States has wed itself to the somewhat nihilistic concept of unregulated capitalism and that inevitably gives you a medieval inequality in outcomes, which in turn leads to those at the bottom, with little hope of legitimately improving their lot, turning to the criminal path. Prosperity and relative equality are important attributes of a safe and peaceful society; debt and outrageous inequity leads to violence.

The cure for violent crime is not in gun legislation, it is in overturning the ludicrous financial system and constraining the freedom of capital with a few moral guidelines.
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Suk, while it's true that lower income kids can sometimes turn to crime, the recent phenomenon in America isn't about class. The shooters are often white and from middle class families.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with you that American society has "a sub-culture wherein lethal violence is an accepted way of resolving issues." While there are people as described above, the commonality tends to be mental illness and alienation, rather than anything I think could be characterized as a sub-culture of lethal violence.
 
Steve is kinda correct. Mass shooters don't tend to be poor kids. But mass shooters are a small % of gun crime a larger portion of gun crime is committed by poor low income individuals. More people are shoot in Chicago every year then all the mass shootings combined.
 
I was broadening the base of discussion somewhat away from the massacre shootings, which are, I agree, largely carried out by those with mental rather than criminal issues.

That said, other than vanishingly rare incidents, we don't get anything like that sort of thing happening over here in Britain. Now is that because there are fewer weapons or because there is a cultural difference in how people in general resolve disputes and that difference carries forwards even amongst the less-than-sane?
 
Sukerkin said:
That said, other than vanishingly rare incidents, we don't get anything like that sort of thing happening over here in Britain. Now is that because there are fewer weapons or because there is a cultural difference in how people in general resolve disputes and that difference carries forwards even amongst the less-than-sane?
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Both. But I think our culters are just that different. I don't believe you guys have the gang issues on the scale we do. I've talked to gang bangers that want to die before the are 30. They can't see life beyond that and to them going out in the "game" is all that matters.
 
ballen0351 said:
Has nothing to do with what the police can and can't do. Its about doing what's right. There are millions of people not police that will step up and get involved. Attitudes like yours ate what wrong with this country. The "why should I help". Its none if my business, blah blah blah. I think people should be looking out for each other and helping each other out. I see this guy shooting up cars I'm going after him and hope others help me.
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Like usual, you are twisting my words. I never stated "why should I help." I spoke of the public in general.

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James Kovacich said:
Like usual, you are twisting my words. I never stated "why should I help." I spoke of the public in general.

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Not twisting your words don't be so defensive. That was a general statement. I was the general I not you
 
Lots of people do things to help others that perhaps the majority of Americans won't do.

A week and a half ago when we were in the grips of a heat wave, many of my friends in the area were going on FB talking about going to the movies or finding other ways to beat the heat.

I strapped on a 20 pound backpack and hit the trail to help out the mountain patrol team at the park where I volunteer. I'm a northern girl, I have not hiked when it's been above 90F before....let alone with a heavy pack.

For most of my hike it was around 91, but when I got above the erosion-made treeline, it was far worse. The exposed granite had been soaking ip the hot sun for the last two days and was radiating so much heat it felt like hiking in an oven.

By the time I had gotten back to my car, I had assisted 3 people of dehydration, one with a sprained ankle, and hiked for a bit with on lady hiking in stocking feet because her shoes fell apart on the rocks.

A hiker should be prepared for their trek. It's not the park's responsibility. It wasn't my responsibility to be there in brutal heat. I didn't have to be there at all.

But, I was.


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Sorry, I missed the segue from an active shooter situation where a middle class kid named John Zawahri shot a bunch of innocent people in what looks like a one-off rampage to the entirely different topic of gang violence and poverty related crime.
 
Steve said:
Sorry, I missed the segue from an active shooter situation where a middle class kid named John Zawahrihot a bunch of innocent people in what looks like a one-off rampage to the entirely different topic of gang violence and poverty related crime.
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I think he was just speaking of gun crime in general. We will never be able to stop mentally Ill from going in a rampage. our only hope in my opinion is to limit the damage when it happens however we decided to do it.
 
Carol said:
Lots of people do things to help others that perhaps the majority of Americans won't do.

A week and a half ago when we were in the grips of a heat wave, many of my friends in the area were going on FB talking about going to the movies or finding other ways to beat the heat.

I strapped on a 20 pound backpack and hit the trail to help out the mountain patrol team at the park where I volunteer. I'm a northern girl, I have not hiked when it's been above 90F before....let alone with a heavy pack.

For most of my hike it was around 91, but when I got above the erosion-made treeline, it was far worse. The exposed granite had been soaking ip the hot sun for the last two days and was radiating so much heat it felt like hiking in an oven.

By the time I had gotten back to my car, I had assisted 3 people of dehydration, one with a sprained ankle, and hiked for a bit with on lady hiking in stocking feet because her shoes fell apart on the rocks.

A hiker should be prepared for their trek. It's not the park's responsibility. It wasn't my responsibility to be there in brutal heat. I didn't have to be there at all.

But, I was.


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Hiking in the heat is no joke.
 
ballen0351 said:
I think he was just speaking of gun crime in general. We will never be able to stop mentally Ill from going in a rampage. our only hope in my opinion is to limit the damage when it happens however we decided to do it.
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So then why are some people suggesting that armed citizens would have helped in this situation?

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Police militarization fact check.

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