Another stance exercise

[mook jong man]

I don't know if I've talked about this exercise on here before.
Its one taught to me a while ago by one of my instructors . But its pretty useful and a lot of fun.

The reason we do chi sau is not only to learn how to stop someone from hitting us .
But also to get used to how different types of external forces effect our structure , stance and ultimately our balance. Vigorous and mobile chi sau with a competent partner is the best for this .

But what if we don't have access to a partner that can do chi sau? Even if you do , you should still practice this drill because it works on our attributes in a slightly different way.

We can simulate the effects of somebody throwing you around in heavy chi sau session by doing this exercise.
Its quite simple , get a partner , preferably , a big strong one if you've got one handy.
If you don't it doesn't matter too much.

• Get in your stance , and allow your partner to grab you by both your wrists as hard as he can.
• Don't counter the grab , that is not the point of the exercise , let him keep hold of you.
• The partner will now try and push and pull you all over the place , they should try and use all their strength to 'manhandle' you and throw you around .
• Your aim is to try and minimise the effect all this pushing and shoving is having on your body and stance.
• You do this by sinking down in your stance .
• Mentally focus towards the centreline.
• Staying relaxed all over , but particularly in the arms and shoulders.
• Let your shoulders be like shock absorbers.
• Be sure to maintain the angles and structure of your arms .
• Don't let your arms be pulled straight , nor let your arms collapse.
• Your partner should not be finding it to easy to drag and push you around.
• If you do find yourself getting thrown around like a rag doll , you need to sink down more and try not to be so tense.
• Your tension is giving him a better link to your body.

That was the first stage of the exercise , and in it you were being quite passive in letting the partner try and disrupt your balance and stance.
In this next stage you are actively going to try and counter him and his attempts at using force on you.

We will do this by using our stance more aggressively and sometimes in a more defencive fashion . Also by redirecting your partners force with pivoting and the use of various arm structures from the forms that give us a leverage advantage.

You should be quite experimental in this and try all the different structures from the forms , and take notice what effects these have on the body of your opponent . Try to look at how they effect his body position , do you have a leverage advantage?, do they put him in a bad position where he can't use strength and he is somewhat contorted and off balance.

• The partner grabs your wrists again , we are still allowing him to hold on.
• But this time he is a little bit more sneaky.
• This time as well as trying to push and pull , and drag you around.
• He might try and push one arm and pull the other at the same time.
• Or try and spread your arms apart , and force them in different directions.
• Everything like stance ,angle ,structure , relaxation still applies.

Some TIPS

• This time use your stance to affect him , start moving forward.
• Try to keep your hands on centre , move forward with a double Bong Sau or double Tan Sau from Chum Kiu , see how this effects his grip and weakens his position.
• Sharp pivoting from side to side can throw him off balance.
• If he starts pushing forward with both hands , split his force apart with a Garn Sau. pivot if appropriate
• Or cut both your arms down , this will pull him down and put him in a bad position.
• If he comes in with a lot of force go into the Double Lan Sau position with both arms folded and pivot , throwing him off to the side .
• If its very powerful , throw one of your hips around and back, let your foot slide , a bit like a bullfighter.
• You can do the same thing with a Seung Bong as the above Lan Sau.
• If he pulls you in , change to double Tan Sau's aimed at the neck.
• The main key to the thing is , if he is resisting your force or trying to force your arms in a position you don't want them in.
• Change the direction of your force and go around his force , don't oppose it.
• For example say he is resisting my double cut down and just holding my wrists there , well then I change my direction of force and go around his force by folding my arms into Double Lan Sau. This changes the relationship of his force and grip to me.
• Say if he's holding me in Lan Sau , you got it , I go straight into a double cut down.
• He cannot possibly keep up with all the different force vectors I am throwing at him , plus the pressure from my stance.
• Play around with this stuff , attack with your stance , use your conventional pivoting , as well as don't be afraid to swing one hip and leg around and back if there is too much power coming at you
• If your angles become collapsed don't be afraid to take a small step back and regain structure.
• There are quite a few moves I have missed see if you can find your own.
• Experiment with all the different moves from Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu , they contain pretty much all you need, don't use any from Bil Jee , bit too dangerous with the elbows .
• Its not really a counter arm grab exercise but once you have experimented with all the different structures you might as well start using them to break the grip.
• This exercise will improve your stance and ability to absorb and redirect force. It will come in quite handy in the street if you are ever grabbed , because rarely does an attacker just grab you and stay in a stationary position.
• It is usually done with a lot of aggression and forward momentum and sometimes accompanied by a punch to the face.

 

[geezer]

I don't know if I've talked about this exercise on here before.
Its one taught to me a while ago by one of my instructors . But its pretty useful and a lot of fun...

But what if we don't have access to a partner that can do chi sau? ...Its quite simple , get a partner , preferably , a big strong one if you've got one handy.

I love this idea. And the great thing about it is that you can train it with your buddies that do other styles. If you get really good at it... they might take a a second look at WC/WT too.

We will do this by using our stance more aggressively and sometimes in a more defencive fashion . Also by redirecting your partners force with pivoting and the use of various arm structures from the forms that give us a leverage advantage.

This is my favorite version... not just practicing how to maintain your stability and structure when getting yanked around, but learning how to use the force you receive to mess up the other guy's balance! The following three tips are especially useful:

• 
  Some TIPS
  • This time use your stance to affect him , start moving forward.
    
  • If its very powerful , throw one of your hips around and back, let your foot slide , a bit like a bullfighter.
    
  • Change the direction of your force and go around his force , don't oppose it.

• 
  
  However, the next one below is a little problematic for me. In WT we never use a double bong sau and seldom use double tan sau. The preferred response (depending on the situation and the energy you receive) is usualy a kwun sau (one bong sau and one tan sau). This is our interpretation of the double bongs and tans in Chum Kiu. The saying is that most double movements are used singly in fighting.
  
  

  • Try to keep your hands on centre , move forward with a double Bong Sau or double Tan Sau...

  
  And lastly, do you guys ever use the "shoulder punch"? That's where someone pulls you in really hard but grapples or pulls down your arm so you can't hit them with a fist or elbow. Instead you let the force exit through your shoulder, slamming them really hard in chest. It's a great way to deal with a strong pull, as well as using it immediately after freeing the arm from an upward elbow grapple. You dissolve the grapple with a sideward gum-sau and let your body spring back into a shoulder-punch to your opponent's chest. I once saw a training partner literally thrown through a wall with this technique. A flimsy wall, to be sure, but still it was impressive as hell!

 

[mook jong man]

Yeah I used to do this a lot at my mates place , he didn't know anything about martial arts and wasn't really interested in learning .
But he did like a challenge .

He was a huge guy , a butcher by trade with massive forearms and hands , his grip could fit around my wrists with room to spare. His dad used to look out the kitchen window laughing as this small dude marched his son around the back yard in weird positions.

In our lineage we actually do use double Tan Sau's and double Bong Sau's , One application I remember seeing is if you have both your hands trapped down low , you can step forward and revolve into double Bong Sau's and propel the person off of you.

One application for the double Tan Sau's is in Chark Jong (smashing defences). Using them to trap and break through a Wing Chun guard , one Tan Sau on either side of their guard , becomes a double punch to chest , or strike to throat with edges of palms , then straight into Lap sau and elbows.

No we don't have a shoulder punch , generally against being pulled in depending on what hand it is , we just go with the flow using a Tan Sau and strike with the spare hand , if its same side grab.
If its cross arm we let the arm fold into an elbow and hit them in the chest and our spare hand protects our face with a Wu sau.

But I do like that use of the shoulder , I think they do something similar in Tai Chi.
I hope you don't mind , but I think I'm going to steal that one off you Geezer and make it part of my repertoir.
How did you train it exactly ? did you shoulder charge pads or something like that?

 

[geezer]

But I do like that use of the shoulder , I think they do something similar in Tai Chi.
I hope you don't mind , but I think I'm going to steal that one off you Geezer and make it part of my repertoir.
How did you train it exactly ? did you shoulder charge pads or something like that?

Naw, you can control it so you don't need pads, the shoulder is very powerful, but nowhere near as sharp and pointy as an elbow. BTW if you look around on youtube, I'll bet there's clips of Leung Ting doing this technique in his old "Authentic Wing Tsun" video. It's really just the next logical step in the normal progression of WC/WT techniques. You know, if your fist is pushed aside, you can fold your arm and strike with the elbow. If your elbow is bent aside, you can yield and sock 'em with your shoulder... as always, in the right situation.

Oh, and I really agree with that tai chi comparison. I don't practice tai chi, but I'm beginning to see a lot of what seems "tai chi like" at the highest levels in many martial arts, and especially WC/WT.

 

[mook jong man]

just the next logical step in the normal progression of WC/WT techniques. You know, if your fist is pushed aside, you can fold your arm and strike with the elbow. If your elbow is bent aside, you can yield and sock 'em with your shoulder... as always, in the right situation.

Nah , don't need to see a video , soon as you wrote that bit , I could understand exactly how it works.
Thanks for that , something new to add to the arsenal.

 

[Tensei85]

Awesome! Thanks for the ideas

 

[wushuguy]

However, the next one below is a little problematic for me. In WT we never use a double bong sau and seldom use double tan sau. The preferred response (depending on the situation and the energy you receive) is usualy a kwun sau (one bong sau and one tan sau). This is our interpretation of the double bongs and tans in Chum Kiu. The saying is that most double movements are used singly in fighting.

in the chum kiu form we do a double bong sau. I found it useful at times in sparring as well if we are caught in an off position, because the double bong sau done has the effect of rolling our chest back while keeping our shoulders in place (it's not exactly used like that in the form, but the idea can be seen as such). that makes us "cave in" slightly, so when a punch is coming in, perhaps too late to maneuver or position is not right for turning stance, so that inch or two of caving in may save one from getting hit, while the bong sao hand position if makes slight contact then can be used for quick recovery... anyway i'm not sure if my meaning was clear, but hope you guys can understand it.