Another Robber wide open to counter attack

[seasoned]

In my experience... no knows knows exactly what they'll do in any given moment in any given situation. It's all speculation. Training will enable us to act but we still choose to take that action. Sometimes we act without thinking calling it instinct born of years of training and experience. This would be more likely from seasoned cops than the average joe. A combat seasoned soldier that is home from duty/retired may likewise act because they've been under fire before and (again) has the training and experience.
Many of us here on MT are usually armed in one form or another. With those like sgtmac they're armed with a pistol at all times, others like me are armed with a folding knife that can be deployed rapidly if need be, still others have empty hands as weapons.
However we're armed, it is no guarantee how we will act in any given situation. There is also no guarantee of the outcome.

Personally I will act (or not act) depending upon my own judgment and based on my feelings at the moment. I've associated with enough criminals that I feel confident in reading them well enough to know that their weapon may be just an intimidation factor or a means to sate their desire to commit violence (and using a robbery as an excuse). I will ALWAYS take for granted that the robber will indeed use his weapon should he feel that he has to. Most of them, all they want is to get what they want and to get the hell out of dodge as quick as possible with little fuss (i.e. before the cops or (armed) security arrives). They're not looking to go out in a blaze of gunfire and a hail of lead. They want to survive just as badly as you do.
They are usually NOT natural born killers. But give them the slightest excuse and they will be.
No, there is no guarantee either that you are being robbed by a mere intimidator and not an actual killer.

Yes, Tex he was well within pistol range and he's watching you.

Good point MA-Caver.

The majority of people on this site either teach or are taught how to defend against armed or unarmed situations. That makes us bias. In the one clip where the robber got the money, turned to leave, then turned back and shot, is very unfortunate indeed. On the same token impossible to read. At best, everyone in the store where the clerk was killed, did what they were suppose to do. Trained LEO, with all their weapons, are trained to seek cover first, then fire. I say, give them what they want, unless they direct you to a back room. As long as we are still at the counter, I would keep my mouth shut. All that robber wants, is money and no resistance. I have never once trained anyone to defend their wallet, only their life, and God willing, I hope I will know the difference, if or when the time ever comes.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Good point MA-Caver.

The majority of people on this site either teach or are taught how to defend against armed or unarmed situations. That makes us bias. In the one clip where the robber got the money, turned to leave, then turned back and shot, is very unfortunate indeed. On the same token impossible to read. At best, everyone in the store where the clerk was killed, did what they were suppose to do. Trained LEO, with all their weapons, are trained to seek cover first, then fire. I say, give them what they want, unless they direct you to a back room. As long as we are still at the counter, I would keep my mouth shut. All that robber wants, is money and no resistance. I have never once trained anyone to defend their wallet, only their life, and God willing, I hope I will know the difference, if or when the time ever comes.

But we're still back to the question of what makes you believe that's all the robber wants or will accept? Conventional wisdom?

We're assuming that armed robbers are 'reasonable'.....THAT is kind of a funny assumption when you think about it.

That advice is still potluck spinning the wheel, and I still believe it's driven as much by fear of liability on the part of the advice giver than anything else.

And since no one has YET been able to quantify the difference between the two type of robbers.......i'm still asking for someone to do so!

I posted an article about the Pizza Delivery guy who got shot to death when he turned the money over to the robber, and the robber didn't like that it was only $30.00 and shot him out of anger at it not being enough!



I don't endorse any particular action in ALL cases, but there is a certain belief on the part of many folks that 'cooperation' should be the default action......and i'm looking for a QUANTIFIABLE justification to support that notion as being better than fighting or fleeing.

Now, obviously if you're unarmed, and facing twenty armed assailants, you're pretty much at their mercy........but Kobayashi Maru scenario's aside, where there is a choice, is cooperation generally more desirable?

 

[MJS]

We don't know what will happen. Will they take the cash and leave, without harming anyone? Will they take the cash, and on the way out, blast a few people? Will they take the cash and on the way out, pistol whip a few in the process, because the clerk is taking too long?

IMHO, I think its foolish to assume that they will always leave without any additional violence. Speaking for myself, I really don't want to take the chance that they will just walk out. I'd be willing to bet that for every incident where they just left, there'd be one where someone got hurt.

I'd rather lean on the side that they will injure someone, so this is why I say that if there is a chance to fight back, take it!

 

[Deaf Smith]

And as I've said before, the robbery went 'bad' the minute the robbers came in the door. There is no crystal ball. IF you have the opportunity, skill, and means to resist, I suggest one does this. If you don't, I suggest you aquire the skill and means and then hope you never need them.

But even then, study videos of robberies and fights. Look for indicators, look for openings, look for what worked and what didn't. Learn from this and modify your SD practice to reflect it.

Deaf

 

[Ahriman]

Surviving robberies is luck. Some people died here a few years ago as their luck ran out. They were all shot. Not resisting and the mindset behind it allowed 9-11 to happen. Not resisting allows criminals to kill, maim and rape huge amounts of people. Resisting may lead to your death, but if you choose not to resist at all then you put your life into the hands of the criminal.
I don't want to die but when a criminal threatens mine or me I'd prefer to die while fighting to surviving due to pure luck.

And one more thing. If you can stop/kill/etc a criminal and you choose not to do so, then it will be partially YOUR responsibility if said criminal ever kills anybody.

 

[arnisador]

And one more thing. If you can stop/kill/etc a criminal and you choose not to do so, then it will be partially YOUR responsibility if said criminal ever kills anybody.

You might have over-learned the lesson of "Spider-Man".

 

[terryl965]

You might have over-learned the lesson of "Spider-Man".

I would have to agree

 

[sgtmac_46]

Surviving robberies is luck. Some people died here a few years ago as their luck ran out. They were all shot. Not resisting and the mindset behind it allowed 9-11 to happen. Not resisting allows criminals to kill, maim and rape huge amounts of people. Resisting may lead to your death, but if you choose not to resist at all then you put your life into the hands of the criminal.
I don't want to die but when a criminal threatens mine or me I'd prefer to die while fighting to surviving due to pure luck.

And one more thing. If you can stop/kill/etc a criminal and you choose not to do so, then it will be partially YOUR responsibility if said criminal ever kills anybody.

And that's an excellent point.....to bring it back to 9/11, if ALL plane passengers resisted hi-jackings, there would never BE hi-jackings.....hi-jackers would not attempt it because it would be a hardened target.

The presumption of compliance is the key factor in the mind of a robber......the belief that he can control a situation by threat of violence.

Now, can we apply that practically to the real world? I'm not sure......many folks will not fight back, even if they had means, so there will always be incentive on the part of trolls and goblins to exploit that.

 

[thardey]

I think most of this conversation, though a very good one, is already behind the robber's "Decision-making loop." Mostly because that's all the video shows.

But we're overlooking the "victim interview process." In most Subways I've been in, especially the newer ones, there are windows all along the front of the store, allowing the robber to "interview" his victims from the parking lot before he decides when to attack.

From watching the first video, the main thing I noticed was the demeanor of the guy in the tie. As the robber entered, the guy didn't even look over until the robber pulled the gun. That suggests a lack of awareness to me, if I was "interviewing" him. Also, his posture doesn't lend itself to confidence -- it didn't change at all to one of "submission" during the robbery, but he acted sumbissive from even before the robbery. Also (this could be a verbal command from the robber) notice how quickly he took his eyes off the gun. Even if you're "turning away" or getting down, you can keep peripheral vision on some part of the robber, at least his feet. This guy completely submitted from the get-go.

That tells me that he wasn't prepared mentally to defend himself from before the cameras started "rolling." We can't see the person making the sandwiches, so I can't comment on their behavior, but there probably was something that encouraged the robber to pick these two as easy targets.

So, from before the beginning, while you're at the Subway, would your demeanor, awareness, etc. encourage the robber to strike while you're there? Or would he rather wait a minute or two until you're gone?

Or, even if he went in, intending to rob you, would he "cool it" and order a sandwich after you make eye contact with him and let him know you "notice" him?

*Not that I'm saying the victim deserved to get robbed -- far from it! But if what he did was less than ideal, I want to learn from that, and not be branded as a target.*

 

[Deaf Smith]

Surviving robberies is luck.

Make your own luck! Train hard, and train right.

And one more thing. If you can stop/kill/etc a criminal and you choose not to do so, then it will be partially YOUR responsibility if said criminal ever kills anybody.

This is true!

If you let a thief go and later they rob or kill someone, some of the blame is on you. Capture them if you can, kill them if you must, but to let them go when you could have stopped them... never.

Deaf

 

[sgtmac_46]

I think most of this conversation, though a very good one, is already behind the robber's "Decision-making loop." Mostly because that's all the video shows.

But we're overlooking the "victim interview process." In most Subways I've been in, especially the newer ones, there are windows all along the front of the store, allowing the robber to "interview" his victims from the parking lot before he decides when to attack.

From watching the first video, the main thing I noticed was the demeanor of the guy in the tie. As the robber entered, the guy didn't even look over until the robber pulled the gun. That suggests a lack of awareness to me, if I was "interviewing" him. Also, his posture doesn't lend itself to confidence -- it didn't change at all to one of "submission" during the robbery, but he acted sumbissive from even before the robbery. Also (this could be a verbal command from the robber) notice how quickly he took his eyes off the gun. Even if you're "turning away" or getting down, you can keep peripheral vision on some part of the robber, at least his feet. This guy completely submitted from the get-go.

That tells me that he wasn't prepared mentally to defend himself from before the cameras started "rolling." We can't see the person making the sandwiches, so I can't comment on their behavior, but there probably was something that encouraged the robber to pick these two as easy targets.

So, from before the beginning, while you're at the Subway, would your demeanor, awareness, etc. encourage the robber to strike while you're there? Or would he rather wait a minute or two until you're gone?

Or, even if he went in, intending to rob you, would he "cool it" and order a sandwich after you make eye contact with him and let him know you "notice" him?

*Not that I'm saying the victim deserved to get robbed -- far from it! But if what he did was less than ideal, I want to learn from that, and not be branded as a target.*

No, I get your meaning completely! And it's an excellent point. Many cop killers who were interviewed pointed to something about the particular officer that made them feel they could take them on......criminals, like predators in the wild DO victim profile.....and the successful ones are pretty good at it.......the unsuccessful ones pick the wrong 'victim'.

 

[Ahriman]

Ahem, I didn't watch Spiderman... I simply ran away from a dog years ago instead of killing it which resulted in a kid's death next day. Got to love stray dogs... responsibility for the kid's death is partially mine, shared with all those who did the same and the previous owners. Is an agressive stray dog that much different from a criminal?
...
I'll comment on the rest of this thread but now I have to go back to the workshop.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ahem, I didn't watch Spiderman... I simply ran away from a dog years ago instead of killing it which resulted in a kid's death next day. Got to love stray dogs... responsibility for the kid's death is partially mine, shared with all those who did the same and the previous owners. Is an agressive stray dog that much different from a criminal?
...
I'll comment on the rest of this thread but now I have to go back to the workshop.

Nope, it really isn't......

“He who does not punish evil commands it to be done.” -Leonardo da Vinci

 

[MA-Caver]

Ahem, I didn't watch Spiderman... I simply ran away from a dog years ago instead of killing it which resulted in a kid's death next day. Got to love stray dogs... responsibility for the kid's death is partially mine, shared with all those who did the same and the previous owners. Is an aggressive stray dog that much different from a criminal?

Yes, but a criminal like the one in Belgium that went on a rampage is no different than an aggressive stray dog. There is a difference. A stray dog really can't be held accountable and would simply be put down. Whereas a criminal has to go through the b.s. of arraignment, formal charges, pre-trial jury selection, pleading, trial, sentencing and finally incarceration.

Take the bastards out the back and shoot 'em.