Originally posted by arnisador
This board is for the friendly discussion of the martial arts. While one is welcome to question a member's background, and to point out that this background may be suspect if that is what one believes, refusing to allow someone to behave in a certain way on our board is not acceptable.
While I know the call has come several times in the past, I know that, from my own perspective, allowing people with questionable backgrounds to post,
especially after their backgrounds have been called into question, simply makes the case against them that much stronger... In the past, I have had some unpleasant dealings with a few folks on MT. I have buried the hatchet on one, another guy was banned, another guy I let bury himself with his nonsensical posts, and the other guy I simply leave alone and others make their own judgements.
And at some point, calling someone out to prove their background, no matter the format of the proof, is going to get unfriendly. It just isn't "neighborly" to tell somebody that you think they are a big wad of cow dung and you want them to show the world just how stinky their past really is. You can phrase it nicely enough, but it still boils down to the same thing - unless, of course, the other person doesn't take it personally and has nothing to hide (which was the case with the person with whom I eventually buried the hatchet).
In this case we have repeatedly indicated that, because of the obvious stalemate, this matter should be taken to e-mail. If a resolution is achieved there, it would be quite reasonable to post about it. Otherwise, it would be friendly to agree to disagree.
While the origination of this post stems from that battle, I have two thoughts... For the one person with the stones to ask the question publicly, there are likely to be many more with the same question (but are either too fearful or polite to ask). Secondly, should said resolution be posted? I would think and hope so, no matter which direction it goes. If the person's background is vindicated by the proof, it
needs to be posted. If it isn't, it
needs to be posted as well (since not doing so exposes others to vicitimization by fraud).
There are other boards that are appropriate for an argument like this. But on MartialTalk, this type of repeated call for credentials is unwelcome. Perhaps E-Budo would be a more appropriate place as this involves a claim about an Okinawan art; I don't know if they would want it there or not.
You are the Mod. I bow to your rules. However, at what point does the desire to remain friendly expose board members to fraudulent instructors and their wily schemes with no protection whatsoever? I understand that it is impossible to police everyone... There will always be frauds and scam artists that fall through the cracks. But at some point we need to start policing ourselves. I understand the Mods may not be either in a position to do it, or the people to do it, but those of us in the rank and file in a position to do some research can. I stay away from it because the stated purpose of MT is to remain "friendly." At the same time, there
is a forum devoted to frauds and bad martial arts right here on MT... Perhaps it is an issue of posting the info, posting the questions, in the wrong forum section? :shrug:
We realize that the intention here is to prevent others from studying with what some feel is, potentially, a fraudulent instructor, and to maintain the value of legitimately granted rank. Thos are worthwhile causes. But we are all called to different ministries, as they say, and this one is not MartialTalk's. We want friendly discussion of the martial arts--not repeated bickering over who studied with whom and whether their rank is legitimate or not.
Perhaps the repeated bantering by both parties has been enough on this one issue. But, like flame wars about anything else, given the revolving nature of forum membership, the same issues (on the same people or not) are bound to return. People will post, people will be questioned, people will refuse, people will be taken to task on bogus or conflicting information, and the Mods will have to get involved again. Just the nature of the Beasties - martial arts
and internet forums...
Posted by Yiliquan1
It's a put up or shut up kind of thing, really.
Posted by Arnisador
No. It's a "Our dojo, our rules" kind of thing.
Here I will most respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. No matter the art, no matter the culture from which it stems, there are certain hallmarks of authentic instruction. One of those is the ability to prove one's legitimacy. Frauds tend to talk big, but waver on the ability to follow through. Some folks are good fighters, and that is enough to authenticate their claims. In cases of paper claims, however, the only resolution is the substantiation of what is being alleged. Then it is an issue of being able to produce or not. Put up, or shut up. It has nothing to do with "our dojo, our rules." Just a call for folks to back up what they claim to possess. If I said I could don a cape and fly like a bird, would you (in the plural sense) believe me, or would you want proof? Same thing here. If I kept stating in public that I could fly, but refused to demonstrate it, folks would just "know" that I was full of it, and they would walk away... Same thing here, except in the case of MA, folks aren't always smart enough to walk away, and they sometimes believe things that go against common sense because they just don't know any better.
Anyway, in other news...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
