An attempt a uniformity

MJS

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On the flip side, there are plenty of 12-year olds who think it's ridiculous that they can't go down to Wal-Mart and purchase a firearm on their own. While that particular child's parent might believe that his son is perfectly capable of owning and carrying a firearm, society has determined that he's too young to handle that kind of responsibility.

Similarly, there are organizations who believe that a 10-year old is ill-equipped to handle the responsibilities of being a Black Belt. And personally, if I'm going to award someone a Black Belt, it's because they've demonstrated that they can effectively defend themselves. Not just remember their katas and their one-steps; not just come to class with a good attitude; not just make their tuition payments; not just being able to be a good point-fighter.

So while there are instructors who believe that 10-year olds make great Black Belts, the reality is that said 10-year old is in for a rude awakening should she ever have to defend herself against a real attacker.

QFT!!!! My thoughts exactly!
 

ceaer

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So, just like you feel that a 10yo should be able to be a 3rd degree BB, you're saying that a 14yo should be able to drive? Case by case basis...ok, so the 16yo may suck, but the 15yo may not, so we'll let him get his DL, but wait, the 14yo is a gifted kid, so we'll give him a CDL too.

To add onto this...this is why in many states, there are limits on what new drivers can do, because they do not have the experience.

In some states, 14 year olds can get learner's permits. In all of those states, there is one big thing in common: they are largely agricultural. Kids have been driving tractors and whatnot around their parent's farms for years. They have an understanding of machinery and the principles of driving that someone from a city or suburb wouldn't, because they haven't had the exposure to it that the rural kids have.
In those states, they find it reasonable that 14 year olds can get learner's permits, because they generally have the background and knowledge (and experience) needed. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a 14 year old, even a 15 year old, can get a learner's permit, but if I lived in an area like that, where that was the norm, chances are I wouldn't think twice about it.
Not to mention that you need to pass a permit test and a road test in order to be licensed. Granted, some people who pass the tests are not responsible drivers, but there are 30, 40, and 50 year olds who drive much more recklessly and dangerously than I do (at age 18).

Also, I can't see how a 10 year old could get a 3rd degree black belt. The average time to bb in most arts is roughly 5 years, and then 2 years to 2nd degree, and 3 to third. So at least 10 years to 3rd degree. How would a 10 year old have 10 years of experience in the art? (This isn't even getting into how good they are).

I don't think anyone is saying that children/teenagers don't have to spend the time in grade in order to get their bb. I disagree with jumping anyone, child, teenager, or adult, through the ranks without meeting the school's requirements.

Having said that, my personal view is, if they have spent the time in grade, met the other requirements to be eligible to test, and are proficient with their material, they should be allowed to test (that does not mean they pass, of course, but they should have the chance). Going to the Joey example, he's 16 and is ready by his instructor's standards to get his black belt. That implies that he has already spent his time-in-grade, however long that was for his school. Why should he have to wait an EXTRA two years before he has the chance at testing?
 

ACJ

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Ok, so going on this, if there should be no standard, and the person should be able to test, then realistically, you could have a 10th degree BB who isn't even 40yrs old. I dont know, maybe its just me, but I always picture someone who is a GM, as an older person, not younger.

Any good system can have a minimum age that a rank is attainable without making up ages at which you can or can't grade, but by instead having the experience required to actually complete the requirements of the test/promotion. Anyway I think a younger person who is more knowledgeable and proficient in their particular art than an older person SHOULD be ranked higher, regardless of what your preconceived notions of a GM are.


So a 10yo 3rd degree BB is going to have the same understanding as a 35yo 3rd degree?

Probably not. And that's has very little to do with what I said.


Because common sense should tell you that a child is not going to understand something the way an adult will. Lets use school as another example. If the child doesnt know basic math, how the hell are they going to know algebra? Trig? Calc? When a child is learning to write, don't they learn the letters, first, how to spell, link them together, etc., before asking them to write an essay paper?

This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying once a child has got basic maths down, then you move them on to more advanced maths. You don't say "oh no, you have to be 12 to do advanced maths"

So basically (so you can understand it) I would have this in an ideal system:

  • Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
  • Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
  • Train, teach, test.
  • Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
 

ACJ

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So, just like you feel that a 10yo should be able to be a 3rd degree BB, you're saying that a 14yo should be able to drive? Case by case basis...ok, so the 16yo may suck, but the 15yo may not, so we'll let him get his DL, but wait, the 14yo is a gifted kid, so we'll give him a CDL too.

To add onto this...this is why in many states, there are limits on what new drivers can do, because they do not have the experience.

While I feel a 10 year old should be able to be a 3rd Dan if they have the appropriate skills, knowledge etc, I would also feel that this would be a superhuman feat for any 10 year old to accomplish. Basically they are allowed to, but they can't.

In regards to drivers, a trained professional who has dealt with the person in question for a considerable amount of time, would be able to make a correct decision regarding the ability of the person to drive. In most cases a 14 year old would be deemed unfit, most likely because of maturity, but if this particular professional deemed that a 14 year old was ready to be driving I would feel confident in that 14 year old's ability to drive. On the other side of the coin, a lot more 18 year old's and such would be turned down from being allowed to drive due to THEIR lack of maturity. But what I was actually arguing was that this particular approach is unfeasible for a government, but not for a MA school.
 

Ken Morgan

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The smartest people in the world are 14 year old girls and 17 year old boys. They know everything and have all the answers.

Establish the criteria for your organization and have done with it. If the students or the parents complain, then the grade is more important to them then the art. Things that have value, should be difficult to achieve.

We are so hung up in the West on grades, Are you a black belt? is the first thing asked by anyone who finds out we do MA. At my age, I shrug and say, Yeah thereabouts, anything to eat? If I was 30 years younger Id be telling people Im a black belt, today? Who cares?

When we look back on ourselves five, ten, fifteen, even twenty five years ago, we were kids who had no life experiences, no life skills, how could we truly value anything?
 

MJS

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In some states, 14 year olds can get learner's permits. In all of those states, there is one big thing in common: they are largely agricultural. Kids have been driving tractors and whatnot around their parent's farms for years. They have an understanding of machinery and the principles of driving that someone from a city or suburb wouldn't, because they haven't had the exposure to it that the rural kids have.
In those states, they find it reasonable that 14 year olds can get learner's permits, because they generally have the background and knowledge (and experience) needed. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that a 14 year old, even a 15 year old, can get a learner's permit, but if I lived in an area like that, where that was the norm, chances are I wouldn't think twice about it.
Not to mention that you need to pass a permit test and a road test in order to be licensed. Granted, some people who pass the tests are not responsible drivers, but there are 30, 40, and 50 year olds who drive much more recklessly and dangerously than I do (at age 18).

I've heard of the same thing...kids in rural areas, driving vehicles on large, open areas of farm land. And yes, I agree with the cases of older people with poor driving skills.

Also, I can't see how a 10 year old could get a 3rd degree black belt. The average time to bb in most arts is roughly 5 years, and then 2 years to 2nd degree, and 3 to third. So at least 10 years to 3rd degree. How would a 10 year old have 10 years of experience in the art? (This isn't even getting into how good they are).

Neither can I, but there seems to be at least one person in this thread that thinks otherwise.

I don't think anyone is saying that children/teenagers don't have to spend the time in grade in order to get their bb. I disagree with jumping anyone, child, teenager, or adult, through the ranks without meeting the school's requirements.

Agreed.

Having said that, my personal view is, if they have spent the time in grade, met the other requirements to be eligible to test, and are proficient with their material, they should be allowed to test (that does not mean they pass, of course, but they should have the chance). Going to the Joey example, he's 16 and is ready by his instructor's standards to get his black belt. That implies that he has already spent his time-in-grade, however long that was for his school. Why should he have to wait an EXTRA two years before he has the chance at testing?

In the schools that I have been a part of, the requirements for young kids is usually half of what teens/adults would learn. That being said, this indicates that at some point, the child, once they get older and move up in rank, will need to learn what they didnt get before. This is why the Jr. BB is added, so once they get that belt, they then go back and learn the rest of the material. By that time, they should be old enough and ready for the adult BB.
 

MJS

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Any good system can have a minimum age that a rank is attainable without making up ages at which you can or can't grade, but by instead having the experience required to actually complete the requirements of the test/promotion. Anyway I think a younger person who is more knowledgeable and proficient in their particular art than an older person SHOULD be ranked higher, regardless of what your preconceived notions of a GM are.

Its a joke to see someone who is not even in their teens, running around with a 2nd, 3rd or 4th degree. There are arts that promote that, and IMO, they're the laughing stock of the martial arts, and no, I'm not the only one who's said that. A 20yo 6th degree BB? Are you kidding me. Hey, if you think thats ok, keep serving up those fries and cokes with the belts. :D




Probably not. And that's has very little to do with what I said.

Actually yes it does, but I guess you missed that.




This is not what I am saying at all. I am saying once a child has got basic maths down, then you move them on to more advanced maths. You don't say "oh no, you have to be 12 to do advanced maths"

So basically (so you can understand it) I would have this in an ideal system:

  • Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
  • Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
  • Train, teach, test.
  • Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.

And there are certain things taught in each grade level. If 3rd grade, for example is basic math, I doubt they're going to bring in algebra just because a few kids get it faster than the rest. As for the rest of your post, I've addressed my thoughts on 3 and 4yr olds in the arts so no need to say it again.

Out of curiosity, your profile lists you at 18yrs old and a 3rd in TKD. When did you start training?
 

MJS

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While I feel a 10 year old should be able to be a 3rd Dan if they have the appropriate skills, knowledge etc, I would also feel that this would be a superhuman feat for any 10 year old to accomplish. Basically they are allowed to, but they can't.

Personally, I'd probably laugh my *** off, if I walked into a school and saw what you just described. A 10yr old 3rd degree BB!!! So again, by your line of thinking, by the time the kid is 20, he'll be a 7th or 8th. And thats normal to you?
 

ACJ

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Personally, I'd probably laugh my *** off, if I walked into a school and saw what you just described. A 10yr old 3rd degree BB!!! So again, by your line of thinking, by the time the kid is 20, he'll be a 7th or 8th. And thats normal to you?

You really need to stop being so thick, and read. I said it wouldn't happen. But if it did happen that 3rd dan would be as good as you'd expect from a 30 year old 3rd dan. So you could laugh at him, but he'd still probably outclass you in all ways in the martial art in question.
 

ACJ

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Its a joke to see someone who is not even in their teens, running around with a 2nd, 3rd or 4th degree. There are arts that promote that, and IMO, they're the laughing stock of the martial arts, and no, I'm not the only one who's said that. A 20yo 6th degree BB? Are you kidding me. Hey, if you think thats ok, keep serving up those fries and cokes with the belts. :D

OK again please read. What I described would prevent preteens and even teens getting their BB, by the requirements of the test alone.


Actually yes it does, but I guess you missed that.

http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/




And there are certain things taught in each grade level. If 3rd grade, for example is basic math, I doubt they're going to bring in algebra just because a few kids get it faster than the rest. As for the rest of your post, I've addressed my thoughts on 3 and 4yr olds in the arts so no need to say it again.

I didn't say anything about 3 and 4 year olds. And they do bring in more advanced maths for kids who have an understanding of the current maths, because governments know how to foster growth and not hold back gifted children (most of the time). So there goes your point.
 

MJS

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You really need to stop being so thick, and read. I said it wouldn't happen. But if it did happen that 3rd dan would be as good as you'd expect from a 30 year old 3rd dan. So you could laugh at him, but he'd still probably outclass you in all ways in the martial art in question.

Dude, I suggest you chill out a bit, before you get yourself booted from this forum! You claim to be 18, maybe you should try acting like it! I think I'm hitting a nerve with you, seeing that TKD is known for handing out black belt ranks to people that are way too young. Kinda Mcdojoish, if ya ask me.

You just said here that you see nothing wrong with a 10yo being a 3rd degree black belt. I highly doubt that the 10yo would have the same comprehension of things as an adult BB would. Outclass me?? Dude, I've been in the arts over 20yrs, and I've yet to be outclassed by a 10yo.

You said in an earlier post that you think it should be based on quality, not age. I too, have said that you will have your 'rare gems' in some students. But I still think that age needs to play a part, otherwise, if its not and its just based on quality, then you will in fact have very young, high ranking BBs.

BTW, let me ask you this...what is the fixation some people have with what belt is around their waist? Why do some feel that they need to be X degree by X age? Its not the belt thats going to help you when you need to defend yourself. Trust me, I've seen some pretty crappy black belts and I often wonder how the hell they got the belt to begin with.
 

MJS

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OK again please read. What I described would prevent preteens and even teens getting their BB, by the requirements of the test alone.

The requirements of the test you listed:

  • Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
  • Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
  • Train, teach, test.
  • Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
I take it there is no age requirements or time frame for any belt level? Please explain to me, how a 10yo, a 5 yo or 4 yo, is going to have as solid of an understanding of any of the material, compared to someone who is older?




Smartass tone noted. Like I said earlier dude, you're new here, please take the time to read the rules. Understand its a forum, and things are often misunderstood due to the fact that impressions will differ from reading something vs. hearing it live. As I also said, I think I'm hitting a bit of a nerve, due to your age and rank. Chill out dude.






I didn't say anything about 3 and 4 year olds. And they do bring in more advanced maths for kids who have an understanding of the current maths, because governments know how to foster growth and not hold back gifted children (most of the time). So there goes your point.

You take the average class of 4yr olds. Out of that group of say, 15 kids, I'd bet there would be 1, if that, that is above average. I've been training and teaching a hell of alot longer than you and this has been proven many times. I'm not saying there isn't a rare gem, but its just that, rare!

But thats ok ACJ...keep on promoting those kids with no age requirements, and the world will be full of 20yo 7th and 8th degree black belts. Yes, those belts do come with fries and a coke! :D Long live the McDojos! LOL!
 

Andrew Green

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I have a firm belief that the whole grading system needs a complete overhaul and should return to the early 1900’s when only 3 types of certification was available, namely, competent, advanced and teacher.

I think he's getting close there.
 

MJS

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A few interesting things:

http://www.anchoragebjj.com/faq.php

How does your belt system work?
We use the traditional standards for BJJ which is 8-12 years to get to Black Belt. This works out to roughly 2 years per belt for most people. BJJ is unlike many other martial arts on the level of proficiency necessary to reach Black Belt.
Even within BJJ schools youll see the more revenue driven schools award belts much more quickly (for student retention) than performance driven schools. We believe giving out easy belts is ultimately to the detriment of students when they realize they are not on the level of other schools and their training is ineffective against new students.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjj#Belt_promotion

Read Grading

http://www.taporsnap.com/bjj.htm

Read Grading: Note in this link, it states the typical time frame, however it does list a few of the rare gems. I'd say those are the exception, not the norm.

Quality, not quantity.
 

ACJ

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You just said here that you see nothing wrong with a 10yo being a 3rd degree black belt.

Please reread. "While I feel a 10 year old should be able to be a 3rd Dan if they have the appropriate skills, knowledge etc, I would also feel that this would be a superhuman feat for any 10 year old to accomplish. Basically they are allowed to, but they can't."

I highly doubt that the 10yo would have the same comprehension of things as an adult BB would. Outclass me?? Dude, I've been in the arts over 20yrs, and I've yet to be outclassed by a 10yo.

Please reread, I've said numerous times that they would have the skills IF they passed the test, IF the test is designed well.

You said in an earlier post that you think it should be based on quality, not age. I too, have said that you will have your 'rare gems' in some students. But I still think that age needs to play a part, otherwise, if its not and its just based on quality, then you will in fact have very young, high ranking BBs.

No you wouldn't, the young ones WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO PASS THE TEST. If they did, they'd be good enough to be the rank

BTW, let me ask you this...what is the fixation some people have with what belt is around their waist? Why do some feel that they need to be X degree by X age? Its not the belt thats going to help you when you need to defend yourself. Trust me, I've seen some pretty crappy black belts and I often wonder how the hell they got the belt to begin with.

And what I've been proposing is to get rid of the crappy black belts.
 

ACJ

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The requirements of the test you listed:

  • Set out the various things your students should be at each level. Whatever that may be, technique xyz, knowledge of blah, ability to teach, discipline, basically whatever floats your boat.
  • Design tests for each level that encompass each of the things you planned in step one, for things that can't be assessed during a test, leave up to the instructor's discretion.
  • Train, teach, test.
  • Nowhere in there was a bias for or against any age group. Easy.
I take it there is no age requirements or time frame for any belt level? Please explain to me, how a 10yo, a 5 yo or 4 yo, is going to have as solid of an understanding of any of the material, compared to someone who is older?

They wouldn't and thus wouldn't grade.


Smartass tone noted. Like I said earlier dude, you're new here, please take the time to read the rules. Understand its a forum, and things are often misunderstood due to the fact that impressions will differ from reading something vs. hearing it live. As I also said, I think I'm hitting a bit of a nerve, due to your age and rank. Chill out dude.

I don't think there are any rules about posting links to reading sites, but sorry if I am mistaker. The main nerve you are hitting has nothing to do with my age or rank, it is more to do with your inability to reply with anything resembling a coherent argument or even addressing what was said.

You take the average class of 4yr olds. Out of that group of say, 15 kids, I'd bet there would be 1, if that, that is above average. I've been training and teaching a hell of alot longer than you and this has been proven many times. I'm not saying there isn't a rare gem, but its just that, rare!

But thats ok ACJ...keep on promoting those kids with no age requirements, and the world will be full of 20yo 7th and 8th degree black belts. Yes, those belts do come with fries and a coke! :D Long live the McDojos! LOL!

Pfft you take the above average 4 year old and they still aren't ready for yellow belt, I don't know why you keep on saying that I'm promoting younger students through to BB. I never said I was, I never implied I was, I just said I was looking at their skill level not their age.
 

MJS

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Lets see if we can sort this out here. My argument, is that I, and a few others from what I can gather, feel there should be age requirements for rank. I'm not crazy about a 4yo in a MA class, however, I've accepted that reality. You are saying that it should be quality and how well you know the material that should make the difference, not age. Am I correct so far? If not please clarify what you mean.

So, if that is the case, that its quality, not age, then you and I agree, so far on the quality part. We still on the same page? As I've said, you can have a 10yo, who is in the above agerage group, the gem, who trains his *** off daily, for an hour and a half. He works stances, making sure they're super strong, great power in everything, from kata to techniques. He knows his material inside and out. He started training when he was 4, so lets assume, for the sake of argument, that its 6yrs to black. As I said, this kid is sharp, so his quality is right up there. Am I safe to say that you feel he should be promoted to black? Again, he meets all the requirements and looks like he's been training for 50yrs. If this is not what you mean, please clarify, because I can point to a few posts of yours, where this is the impression that I'm getting. I'll give an example. Here. Your 1st paragraph:

What I think is being said is that it is not regardless of quality, just age. Think about what a black belt means, it varies with a lot of people, but it usually represents a certain knowledge and proficiency. Adding an arbitrary age requirement means it changes the meaning of a black belt (or any other belt) from: This means I'm proficient in my art. To: This means I'm proficient in my art and I'm proficient at being over 18.

I take this as you saying that age shouldn't matter, just the quality. Am I right so far? If not, please clarify what you meant. To further enhance this, you made your point again here. You quoted me asking you, if it was ok to have a 10yo 1st deg., a 12yo 2nd, a 15yo 3rd, and a 19yo 4th, all to which you said yes, it was ok, as long as they met the requirements and were reasonably proficient. Am I correct so far?

Moving on....so, going on all of this, assuming I'm right so far, then they can continue to advance in the belt ranks, regardless of age, but as long as they meet the standards for the material, they look sharp, etc. Right so far? So, am I safe to assume that?

Later on, you say this. I take this as you acknowledging the rare gems, but also that its unlikely, or in your words, a superhuman feat, to actually do this. They're allowed to test, but can't because it would be a superhuman feat, or in my words, they'd have to be one of those rare gems. Am I correct so far? If not, please clarify. :)

So, if it'd be a superhuman feat, in essance, the child is going to have to wait, thus making them age, until they can meet those standards, but again, its a superhuman feat, so I take that as it not happening all that often. So, if thats the case, why not just make them wait, let them mature, let them get that deeper understanding? If its a superhuman feat, chances are its probably not going to happen that often, right? Am I understanding you correctly so far? If not, please clarify for me. :)

I'll await your reply, but in closing, I'll say this. Regarding your little link here. Nope, nothing wrong with posting links, however, I took that as a snide remark from you, considering in more than one post, you've said that I'm not comprehending you.
 

ACJ

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Lets see if we can sort this out here. My argument, is that I, and a few others from what I can gather, feel there should be age requirements for rank. I'm not crazy about a 4yo in a MA class, however, I've accepted that reality. You are saying that it should be quality and how well you know the material that should make the difference, not age. Am I correct so far? If not please clarify what you mean.

So, if that is the case, that its quality, not age, then you and I agree, so far on the quality part. We still on the same page? As I've said, you can have a 10yo, who is in the above agerage group, the gem, who trains his *** off daily, for an hour and a half. He works stances, making sure they're super strong, great power in everything, from kata to techniques. He knows his material inside and out. He started training when he was 4, so lets assume, for the sake of argument, that its 6yrs to black. As I said, this kid is sharp, so his quality is right up there. Am I safe to say that you feel he should be promoted to black? Again, he meets all the requirements and looks like he's been training for 50yrs. If this is not what you mean, please clarify, because I can point to a few posts of yours, where this is the impression that I'm getting. I'll give an example. Here. Your 1st paragraph:



I take this as you saying that age shouldn't matter, just the quality. Am I right so far? If not, please clarify what you meant. To further enhance this, you made your point again here. You quoted me asking you, if it was ok to have a 10yo 1st deg., a 12yo 2nd, a 15yo 3rd, and a 19yo 4th, all to which you said yes, it was ok, as long as they met the requirements and were reasonably proficient. Am I correct so far?

Moving on....so, going on all of this, assuming I'm right so far, then they can continue to advance in the belt ranks, regardless of age, but as long as they meet the standards for the material, they look sharp, etc. Right so far? So, am I safe to assume that?

Later on, you say this. I take this as you acknowledging the rare gems, but also that its unlikely, or in your words, a superhuman feat, to actually do this. They're allowed to test, but can't because it would be a superhuman feat, or in my words, they'd have to be one of those rare gems. Am I correct so far? If not, please clarify. :)

So, if it'd be a superhuman feat, in essance, the child is going to have to wait, thus making them age, until they can meet those standards, but again, its a superhuman feat, so I take that as it not happening all that often. So, if thats the case, why not just make them wait, let them mature, let them get that deeper understanding? If its a superhuman feat, chances are its probably not going to happen that often, right? Am I understanding you correctly so far? If not, please clarify for me. :)

I'll await your reply, but in closing, I'll say this. Regarding your little link here. Nope, nothing wrong with posting links, however, I took that as a snide remark from you, considering in more than one post, you've said that I'm not comprehending you.

Now we seem more on the same page. What you have said is largely in line with what I was thinking, with a few minor clarifications.

As I said in one post when deciding the requirements for each belt there can be a whole range of criteria that a teacher could add to a system if they so chose. These things go beyond just physical skill and knowledge. For instance if the designer of a system was to decide black belts should be able to teach, then the instructor would only pass a student able to teach. Or an instructor could decide that a black belt is mature, and would only grade someone to black belt when they are mature (that is, rather than when they're supposed to be mature, e.g 16/18/21 etc.).

Further holding a child back from grading too early, and a big part of the reason I would not start teaching younger children the main syllabus, is the inability for their body to practice certain techniques safely, thus limiting what syllabus could be taught to them, but I also take into account that people develop at different ages and thus it is easier to look at each child's physical and emotional development rather than going "10. 10 is the minimum age, no exceptions."

Finally, I am not against holding people back from their grading, but when the only reason is their age, I think that's just silly.
 

ceaer

Yellow Belt
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In the schools that I have been a part of, the requirements for young kids is usually half of what teens/adults would learn. That being said, this indicates that at some point, the child, once they get older and move up in rank, will need to learn what they didnt get before. This is why the Jr. BB is added, so once they get that belt, they then go back and learn the rest of the material. By that time, they should be old enough and ready for the adult BB.

Yes, my school uses junior bbs for just that reason, the kids do not learn as much material as the adults do, and they have to "catch up" before they can test for shodan. However, depending on the age of the kid when they get their junior black, they might be caught up with the material requirements for adult shodan before they're 18. And if they know the material and are ready and have their time-in-grade, they can test.
What are your feelings about that? I agree with you that children shouldn't go directly to shodan, due to the different requirements for children and teenagers/adults. But say they get their junior at 12, and are ready for their shodan when they're 15. Would you allow them to test? Or would they still be too young in your view?
 

ap Oweyn

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Ugh. Mostly, this thread just makes me glad that I'm not part of a belt system anymore. I understand the basic drive to have one, but I feel like there's got to be a less "loaded" way to set goals and recognize accomplishments. Because the belt system, to my mind, has a tendency to collapse under its own weight.
 
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