All FMA is ALL the same ! ? !

[Rich Parsons]

I can understand those who have not trained in FMA or are new to FMA's.

Yet for those who have been around for a while to think that all FMA's do all things the same way, and or must have the same names for the same or similiar techniques.

Has others run into this where people train for years of what have you and assume that all must do it the same?

 

[Rocky]

The sad part is that this attitude also dictates how people train...I have met Karate people that only train against people that throw Karate style punches, or Gung Fu style punching or what ever... In the FMA's I can't tell you who many years right here in Michigan I tried to tell people that "Hey there is a lot more to FMA then what you are getting, but because I wasn't a big name or maybe it was insecurity on their part I don't know in fact my constant erging to get the Modern Arnis people here to see that their was so much more to experience , just made me an out cast. I for the life of me never understood why people would think that everyone swung a stick or blocked a stick the same way!! Its mind boggling. I remember my first full contact stick match, that lasted less then 5 seconds and ended up with me laying in the fetal Eskrimador postion clutching my broken chin bone, talk about a painful way to find out that not everyone strikes the same!!!! At any rate Rich I think the MA's in general are full of people that live in this type of haze, however with the internet and the UFC type of stuff more and more people are beginning to see the light that some of us saw 25 years ago and that people like Bruce Lee, and Professor Presas and others saw decades ago!

Rocky

 

[arnisandyz]

Depends. I have had teachers that draw on similarities between arts. I do the same thing...If I have a student who also practices TaiChi and we do a certain footwork that utilizes body shifting and weight transfer for example, I might say "You alreay do this motion in your art...its the same." I don't mean TaiChi is the same as Arnis, I say it just to draw on the knowledge they already have.

People can make this as complex as they want. Developing systems and naming every technique. When I first learned stickfighting, I wasn't taught names of the drills or techniques or angles, it was just "do it like this".
In the big picture if you take 2 people using a rattan cane as a fighting tool there will probably be more "the same" then "different". Sometimes I think people get to caught up in labels and styles just like certificates.

I think Bruce Lee said it best...wasn't it something like "Before we know better a punch is just a punch...when we start to train, explore and experiment a punch is no longer a punch...now that we understand, a punch is just a punch again." I know its not exactly how he said it but you get the idea!

 

[tshadowchaser]

A punch is a punch but there are many ways and angles of punching,
A stick can move in certian directions or be held in more than one way but most people dont know the diffrence they only see a person with a stick.
when you say FMA to most "karate" people they see a person with a stick and have know idea of the training or that different systems have different names for many things and varrying ways of doing things

 

[Pat OMalley]

I think it is all a matter of perception, yes many Karate people see the FMA as just a bunch of people weilding a stick, but then that is their loss. To an FMAer, we can see the difference in styles, but also see the similarities.

Luckely though more and more people are beggining to understand what we are all about and starting to realise that we are not just a bunch of stick weilders, they are now realising that we too can kick, punch, throw, fight empty handed and more.

In time the FMA will become part of the norm, I know here in the UK FMA is now considered as part of the main stream martial arts scene and more people are understanding that we too have many styles and interpretations. All you have to do is pick up a magazine in any one month here in the UK and it is full of FMA people. Mind you on the down side, because of it's sudden acceptance you have more and more people dabbling in the art, taking just portions such as the basic single stick drills and adding it to there curriculum and saying the do FMA in order to boost their nimbers in the class, these people are generally the McDojo type schools.

But like any art, when it starts to become popular, certain individuals will jump on the band wagon.

Best regards

Pat

 

[HKphooey]

I think all it takes is one seminar and you are hook and you "get it" ! The "Art within your art". As a kenpo lover, put a stick in your hand and use the same techniques. WOW! A whole lot of fun. Sensei Frank Shekosky showed me the basics and I really enjoy playing with the sticks. SO far I have met some great people and have picked up some insightful "additions" to my arsonal.

 

[lhommedieu]

Cf. our article in the special edition of FMA Digest (pp. 110 - 127 in the exe. version), wherein we discuss two FMA's that look quite different from each other, yet have the same goal in mind:

http://www.fmadigest.com/Issues/special-editions/special-edition.html

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[thekuntawman]

i believe this happens when teachers absorb other peoples style and technique. now because everything is on video and taught in seminars, it is easy to find out what the other guy is doing. so the days of keeping your techniques to yourself is pretty much over, except for a few people. i dont really think is a good change. it is too easy to adopt what the next guy is doing instead of learning a way to beat it, which is the method i prefer. you know the saying, if you cant beat him, join him? well, todays martial artist doesnt even try to beat him, he just looks at the next guy and either he thinks, i cant beat him, or he is thinking "i want to learn that!" i consider those things a beginners way of thinking.

a more traditional filipino method of philosophy for the martial arts is, that style cant beat mine. the modern filipino thinking is, "oh, yes, we have that too!" if you look at the old, traditional guy, who we all admire and like to quote, he might adopted some techniques into his own personal style, but once he has his art, he spends his life defending and developing the art and its reputation. this is why we have these challenge matches and great rivalries and stories to talk about to our students. nowadays, they criticize the masters who challenge each other, or say, "my art is better than yours". the new thinking is some kind of "nonviolent", get along art, where everybodys friends, they share, crosstrain, and are afraid to disagree, or worse, challenge each other to see who really is best. fighting arts dont grow this way. only friendships and alliance (which is good for business, and recruitment of nonviolent students).

because everyone is sharing so much info, almost no one is standing out and looking different. everybody does the same drillings, techniques, and even the same names for techniques! one person comes out with a weapons or technique (like the whip), and look! how many people say, oh we have that too. then somebody makes a article about stick grappling, then four or five styles say they have it too. and everybody "All FMA is ALL the same". i would like to see somebody come out and say, well that art will not work on me, and then the FMA community gets to see if he is right.

and that is how arts live and die, and get there TRUE reputations, by its masters proving which art is the best. nowdays, we have most FMA people puting down those who test themselves. i have even heard a few guys criticize dog brothers as a sloppy art, as if any of them would show up at a gathering to show how it is done. i believe the growth of the philippine arts would become a laughing stock like mcdojos if we continue the commercialization of long distance courses and seminars available for anyone who can afford it. as long as people avoid tournaments like WEKAF instead of admitting that they are afraid to participate (to show them how its done), we will see more instant arts, instructors, and the ones who really specialize in a technique, idea or unique methods will become invisible.

 

[kruzada]

the new thinking is some kind of "nonviolent", get along art, where everybodys friends, they share, crosstrain, and are afraid to disagree, or worse, challenge each other to see who really is best. fighting arts dont grow this way. only friendships and alliance.

If the art or attitudes of FMA practitioners, has to change in order to create a more unified FMA community, then so be it.

The Philippines has long suffered from the detrimental effects of Regionalism and our adopted "Crab mentality". It is to the benefit of all Filipinos, that the Masters in the Philippines are working towards a more unified FMA community.

We can more effectively propagate the art to Filipinos who aren't in touch with their cultural heritage, together than as rival groups. Helping to instill in the Filipino community, especially our youth, a greater sense of cultural pride and sense of identity, is a much more productive way to use our skill and knowledge, in contrast with promoting in-fighting among our people.

The Philippines has long suffered from the negative effects of regionalism, in-fighting and a general lack of cohesiveness. The last thing our country needs is for us to fight the efforts that are being made towards a more unified community, even on such a small scale.

A good example is the upcoming 3rd FMA Festival in the Philippines http://fmafestival.com/ . I for one am glad that some of the bad blood between old rival FMA groups is being put aside.

IMO there is nothing more important than affecting positive change in the Philippines, God knows we need it.

-Rich Acosta

 

[thekuntawman]

not bad blood, but healthy competition. there is not bad blood between most of these fighters of the past and present, but a true respect of each others fighting skill and as a fellow martial artist.

some people look at martial arts like a church, they make better people, get along and serve the community. i dont. the martial arts to me is like the military. we protect our community and our family and ourselves. you cannot be nonviolent and peaceful all the time, especially when its time to protect yourself. we need to be able to turn it on and off. with no conflict, a martial artist will be too nervous or even scared to act when it is in his face. it is better to learn to deal with it in healthy competition with someone who will not seriously hurt you, than to face it for the first time with a man holding a razor who will not hesitate to put you down.

i do not agree that a unified FMA community requires us to share information and not have rivalries and competition. competition is what makes us strive to become better than the next guy, instead of doing what everybody else is doing. unified FMA comes from having pride that we are all representing each other in style and nationality. you cannot have pride in being FMA fighter, when most of your compadres cannot fight, you become embrarrassed that someone might think all FMA cant fight. imagine what is said about american FMA teachers, or even filipino FMA teachers in america: we will teach anyone who pays us, our students get teaching certificates in 8-10 (or less) seminars, our students only know how to drill, not fight, our students are afraid of competing, and what else? no, its not true about us all, but it is true about most of us. who of the real FMA fighters wants to be unified with that.

to me, crab mentality, is not pulling other crabs back into the pot. it is crabs who make it out, and do not pull others with him. like pinoys who make $50,000 a year here in america, but dont sent money home. or teachers who teach for thousands of dollars there own style of Arnis, but never tell you who he learned from, or never sent his students to pay respects to his real teachers.

i believe you might be younger instructor. but know this, it is those rivalries and challenge matches that made your fighting art so effective. the masters before you developed and modeified the art base on his own REAL FIGHTING exoerience, not teachings or exchanges with his friends. now your generation can continue the development of the art in the same way, or you can blend in and do what the rest do and base your art on what everybody else is doing. my style of eskrima consist of the single stick and the single knife, that's it. i have not fought with the espada at daga, and i have not added in anyone elses style that i have no experience with. the result? i can back up what i do 110%. not many people are willing to say that and prove it. if my students believe what i teach them is not enough, then they are welcome to test it out on someone else. if they get beat, i teach them to train harder, find out why they got beat and then try it again. they do this as many times that they need in order to beat the guy (this hasnt happend yet), but this is how you master your art, develop a way to use it against everyone, not give up on your method and adopt somebody elses.

there is a saying, "your reputation as fighter comes from your enemies, not your friends". this means when a friend says your fighting skill is great, it does not mean as much as when your rival says you are a good fighter. these things are necessary for the growth of a fighting style. now that, means little when we are talking about business. for business, it is better for "kumbaya" hands holding and all of that. for business you want everyone to want to do it. but fighting arts, true fighting arts, is not for everyone. its not for the weak stomachs. if you soften your art and its philosophy so that cowards will do it, then what is the value as a fighting art? if a coward is strong enough to do the true art, it is better for him because he will get everything the art has to offer.

im sorry, i have to go, i will finish the message later. i know its long...

 

[kruzada]

i believe you might be younger instructor.

Actually I am 34 this year. You are slightly older than me, but not old enough to be considered a part of an older generation. I respect your opinion on this matter, and even agree with some of your points. But there is much that I must disagree with.

not bad blood, but healthy competition. there is not bad blood between most of these fighters of the past and present, but a true respect of each others fighting skill and as a fellow martial artist.

Actually there is plenty of Bad Blood between FMA groups, I know of some Grandmasters that held many grudges against people they had beaten or had falsley claimed or insinuated that they had been beaten by, and this carried over, for decades, into their groups who would not associate with each other out of respect for their teachers.

I agree with some of your points, and have similar feelings about the FMA. But I feel that while we must keep what we do effective and constantly hone and test our skills in combat, there are other options to achieve this without causing unnecessary confilict between styles/systems.

this is how you master your art, develop a way to use it against everyone, not give up on your method and adopt somebody elses.

I agree with you on this. While I have trained in other arts, I believe in what I teach, and I find a way to modify my techniques to counter other styles of MA that I encounter. The FMA is not about learning to use all methods of fighting in your own personal style, that is JKD. The FMA is about constantly adapting your style, so that you are ready for anything and everything, using the techniques that you have at your disposal in more creative ways.

there is a saying, "your reputation as fighter comes from your enemies, not your friends". this means when a friend says your fighting skill is great, it does not mean as much as when your rival says you are a good fighter.

I agree with this as well. But I've never been very good at making enemies.

these things are necessary for the growth of a fighting style. now that, means little when we are talking about business. for business, it is better for "kumbaya" hands holding and all of that.

If by "kumbaya hands holding" you mean spirituality, my take on this is that although I practice a very efficient art that leaves no room for spiritual quandries when you have to defend your life and/or the life of your family members, these situations will only arise so many times in my life. For the other more normal moments in my life, I never forget that I am first and foremost a Catholic. FMA will always come second, a close second, but second nonetheless.

I have had no problems balancing the FMA and my other philosophies in life. Neither has GM Vicente Sanchez www.kaliarnisinternational.com who is both a respected Grandmaster and a very humble and spiritual person. Even if his point of view is a rarity among the Grandmasters, it is a view I find most akin with my own.

It's good to hear differing opinions though.

 

[thekuntawman]

enemies, is not really your enemies in this saying. i believe they are saying that when your opponent has said that you are a good fighter, it is a stronger statement than when a friend says it. not really opponents you dislike. but there is healthy respect between fighters after they have fought, than before, because the questions is, i think i can beat him. martial artists usually feel their method is a better style. this is what they mean when they say, "i found MY truth". it is a polite way of saying "this is the best way to do it". in my opinion, that is what the martial artist will say when he doesnt want to back up his opinions. the good thing about the old masters, is that they say with confidence, no that does not work, let me show you why. if you are teaching a class, you should be able to prove your theories (not really theories after you prove them), and that is why i feel we need the practice of challenges (friendly or unfriendly), it keeps masters on their toes, that someone will ask them to proved it.

as for the grudges, they have them in boxing, all styles of the martial arts, even in slam poetry! it makes people work harder to become better than the next guy. i am not afraid of them, i enjoy them, as long as people are respectful and dont really try to hurt someone. i have rivals, even some people i do not like. its another reason for me to keep my game up. challenges are a strong part of martial art traditions. they give birth to new arts, styles, and branches of styles. this is why arnis stickfighting is so advanced over kung fu stick, karate stick fighting. this is why we do not have forms, still stances, and why we practice with power. we found out many generations ago that there is a better way to train for fighting, while some styles are still doing cartwheels with there sticks. we have the old rivalries and challenge matches to thank for that. and believe me, stickfighters will get better in the future. i believe that what saved respect for western FMA is groups like dog brothers and the hawaii fc groups, filipinos at home have to stay with tradition, before the foreigners are the ones to show us how its done.

for religion, i wasnt really talking religion. i was talking about how everyone wants to "get along" and promote each other. thats fine for some people. but i keep my art to myself, and i mix it up with other artists when i can. it keeps my reputation and my confidence, and allows me to give my students advantage over other martial artists that we are unique. i do have friends, but only a few. i believe many martial artist (arnisadors too) fell safety in the number of their friends. i find that the most dangerous are the ones who stay to himself. i have the mosque to socialize. the tournament and sparring sessions is the testing place for our people.

my observation, is that many FMA people build there martial art careers and reputations by the people they mingle with. if you go to lots of the seminars and gatherings, you met people who will say good things about you. they host each other for seminars, they speak up for each other in the internet forms. and when one of them who is unworthy to call himself "master" or "authority of FMA", no one pulls him to the side, to say, you cant do that. or, you're wrong. some people will go his whole career without even one fight, except advertisements saying he was a cop or military, or even more funny, "numerous streetfighting experience". this is not how the arnis master gets known. some of you know, if you call yourself eskrima expert, you better be ready to prove it, because somebody will want to see what your made of. this doesnt happen in seminar community. look at when Grandmaster Presas dies. some guys come out, and say he is a grandmaster too. nobody called him to his face. why? he puts his schedule in the magazine every month? he is easy to find. another lady, is a brown belter in 1999, and now its 2006 and she is already 6th degree! i had my first black belt fight in 1985, and i dont call myself 6th degree...now on the other hand, we have wing chun. william cheung was saying leung ting doesnt know wing chun. his students, emin botzepe, shows up to kick his ***. nobody won the fight really, but guess what william cheung stoped running his mouth and now he is respectful. it is either, fear, or earned respect. if our arnis masters preserved some of the practice of challenging each other (not just fighting, but even challenging with words, and in person), we would not have people running around making claims and false resumes, rename presas art and call it his own, or whatever.

back to the original topic, people say FMA looks the same, because it does. very few people have arts so deep it looks unique. most people do the same drills, same techniques and "pormas", etc, and no one can tell you how his art is different in fighting, and almost no one will show you.

 

[kruzada]

I understand what you are getting at, and you have many good points. Very well thought out reply.

I respect your opinion, but I cannot support any way of thinking that is in opposition to working towards a more unified FMA community.

-Rich Acosta

 

[Pat OMalley]

First of all, we all do the most effective style according to ourselves otherwise we would not do that style, we would do another, but even though we do different styles that we feel maybe superior to others this does not mean we cannot be unified.We respect each others differences both in style and in approach even if in some instances you feel your appraoch is better, yes it maybe, better for you but not nessisarily for everyone, that is what makes us unquie from other martial arts styles.Yes I agree you have to test your skills otherwise you will never know what does and does not work or how to rectify any chinks you may have in your armour, and yes tournaments like WEKAF and Padded stick and even DBMA or similar are a good way to do it, but they are not everyones cup of tea, but with the veriety of FMA styles and groups out there we as a unified art can find a method for everyone to test their skills, we may not agree on any one individual method, but find a method we can and often do.Unity does not nessisarily mean converting from one style to another, it can mean working together for a common goal dispite our differences, out common goal as I see it is to promote the FMA on a more unifide front to the general public and the martial arts world to show them just how varied and effective we are.Yes you are right, if you cannot use your skills in a conflict then what is the point, but this does not mean we have to be in conflict with each other, it just means that at the end of the day, each and everyone of use has to at some point test our skills to ensure they work, and it can be done in many ways, tournaments being one of them.Bad blood may have helped to build the FMA's reputation but brotherhood and acceptance of our differences can makes us even better.Best regardsPat

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

All FMA all the same, No Way! Similarites yes, differances absolutely!
However, it sure is funny the way non FMA martial artists lump all
Filipino martial arts into the same category of stick play.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[kruzada]

Unity does not nessisarily mean converting from one style to another, it can mean working together for a common goal dispite our differences, out common goal as I see it is to promote the FMA on a more unifide front to the general public and the martial arts world to show them just how varied and effective we are.

Bad blood may have helped to build the FMA's reputation but brotherhood and acceptance of our differences can makes us even better.Best regardsPat

I am in total agreement. When I first started promoting the FMA I ran into many political barriers, even among other Filipino instructors. We can affect more positive change in the FMA community as a whole, if we are able to put our egos, and personal agendas aside.

 

[HKphooey]

Of course FMA styles are different and we as individuals are different. Each one of us trains for a different reason. All the posts are valid in their own ways. It is no different from traditions, food, language, sports, religion, etc. I personally love to try other ethnic foods, attend friend's religious functions, play sports with others outside my league and above all workout with other martial arts. I think I learn the most about my own styles (life) from people outside my style (life).

I had found everyone in FMA world very friendly and fun to train with at seminars. I know some may not have the same experiences, but hopefully those are at a minimum.

A warrior that only knows one side, leaves the other open to attack. - Bushido

 

[thekuntawman]

hey!

i was reading this thread, and i see that pat omalley, rich acosta and some others account is cancelled, but they are still around. whats going on?

 

[arnisador]

Some of them still post on FMATalk, a MartialTalk sister site.