akido...hapkido

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MTisGreat

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i hear hapkido is a knock off of akido. is that true or does it have its own origin?

no offense whatsoever!
 
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Venos-KSW

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almost completely different as far as curriculum. hapkido is alot of small circle joint locks, and aikido (from what ive studied) is an art that teaches using the attackers force against them, and weapons work. alot of the falling is the same in general though.
 

Chris from CT

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Hapkido and Aikido stemmed form the same art af Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu under the teaching of Sokaku Takeda.

Brief Background on Hapkido Founder, Choi Yong Sul

During the Japanese occupation of Korea it was common for young boys to be sent to Japan to work. Choi Yong Sul was taken to Japan and lived with a candy store owner who did not care for him at all. (and you would think being an 8 year old boy working for a candy store owner would rock!?) Choi Yong Sul was abandoned and living in the streets before the police took him and placed him in a buddhist temple.

After some time living in the temple one of the monks asked him what he wanted to do with his life. Choi Yong Sul pointed to the murals on the wall of the monks training in the martial arts. This is when he was introduced to and taken in by the Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu master Sokaku Takeda.

Depending on who you talk to, you will hear he was treated as a servant to an adopted son. Either way, Choi Yong Sul stayed in the Takeda household for 30 years doing his duties and training in Daito Ryu (whether by private/group instruction or observing in secret). At the end of World War 2, when Sokaku Takeda died, Choi Yong Sul travelled back to Korea where he started teaching what he had learned in Japan. Originally, he called the style many things (Yu Sul, Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sul, Yawara, Hap Ki Yu Sul, etc.) before finally using the term we know today as Hapkido.

Take care :)
 
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Eraser

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Hey all...

Well i can speak from experiecne.. having taken 2 yrs of Aikido and since Jan 02 been in Hapkido.. .there are huge differences... ummm let me see.. retaliation.. for one.. in aikido.. we never threw a punch or kicks.. we simply (as in earlier reply) used the attackers energy to get them away.. we did do utilize lots of pin (with joint lock) positions and throw tactics as well..
in Hapkido.. are main goal is still to get the attacker out of our way.. but we add a little pain for the attackers time & involvement with us... But there are some simlilar theories that we share... especailly with Aki-motion (using attackers energy flow) its cool... BUT alas.. the are truly 2 different styles.

that's my 2 cents
Later.........
 
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H@pkid0ist

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OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHH man here we go again. The only simularities between the two are that they use the same 3 chinese characters. Dats a All.:D
 

Kempojujutsu

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Originally posted by Chris from CT

Hapkido and Aikido stemmed form the same art af Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu under the teaching of Sokaku Takeda.

Brief Background on Hapkido Founder, Choi Yong Sul

During the Japanese occupation of Korea it was common for young boys to be sent to Japan to work. Choi Yong Sul was taken to Japan and lived with a candy store owner who did not care for him at all. (and you would think being an 8 year old boy working for a candy store owner would rock!?) Choi Yong Sul was abandoned and living in the streets before the police took him and placed him in a buddhist temple.

After some time living in the temple one of the monks asked him what he wanted to do with his life. Choi Yong Sul pointed to the murals on the wall of the monks training in the martial arts. This is when he was introduced to and taken in by the Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu master Sokaku Takeda.

Depending on who you talk to, you will hear he was treated as a servant to an adopted son. Either way, Choi Yong Sul stayed in the Takeda household for 30 years doing his duties and training in Daito Ryu (whether by private/group instruction or observing in secret). At the end of World War 2, when Sokaku Takeda died, Choi Yong Sul travelled back to Korea where he started teaching what he had learned in Japan. Originally, he called the style many things (Yu Sul, Dae Dong Ryu Yu Sul, Yawara, Hap Ki Yu Sul, etc.) before finally using the term we know today as Hapkido.

Take care :)
This the Hapkido verison of this story. If you ask someone who does Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is alot different. Basically the Aiki people don't believe that a Korean Child could come into Japan at that era and start taking Aikijutsu. I tend to believe the Aikijutsu story more so than the Hapkido verison. Here are my reasons:
First of all Aikijutsu is the art of war. If they didn't kill you they sent you home maim. (When used in combat.) This is no kids art especially back than.
Second I don't believe the Japanese people would teach a foreigner more so a Korean. This child was probably a servant (slave) and watch as they preform the Aikijutsu. Motobu Ryu which is Okinawan, Chokki Motobu was not promented to do his family's art. Only the eldest son was. Chokki watch through a peep hole in a fence as his father and oldest brother workout.
Final Aikijutsu doesn't do all the fancy kicks that Hapkido does and the locks are do differently also. You could say a rose and dandelion are the same. In some ways they are, but alot of ways they are very different.
Bob
:asian:
 

Chris from CT

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Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
This the Hapkido verison of this story. If you ask someone who does Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. Is alot different. Basically the Aiki people don't believe that a Korean Child could come into Japan at that era and start taking Aikijutsu. I tend to believe the Aikijutsu story more so than the Hapkido verison.

Everyone has a version. The one I mentioned is just one of many, take it for what it's worth. :)

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Final Aikijutsu doesn't do all the fancy kicks that Hapkido does and the locks are do differently also. You could say a rose and dandelion are the same. In some ways they are, but alot of ways they are very different.

There are different versions of Hapkido. There are two main lines.

1. Choi Yong Sul's Style

2. Ji Han Jae's Style (Choi Yong Sul's student)

GM Ji Han Jae is one of the main people who added the huge arsenal of kicks to Hapkido. Alot of the Hapkido people see is from GM Ji Han Jae's lineage. There are very few who train under the Choi Yong Sul Style of Hapkido now-a-days. Among those people who do are GM Lim Hyun Su, GM Chang Chin Il and GM Kim Yun Sang. There are others who trained under Dojunim Choi, but they have altered what they have learned (Which doesn't make it wrong, just different). Dojunim Choi Yong Sul's style, that he taught, was more along the lines of Aikijujutsu. It didn't have the flashy kicks, but I can see where you would get that idea.

Take care :asian:
 
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M

MartialArtist

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In its true form, they are the same. There are different versions of each which may feel like it's different but...

The founder of hapkido and aikido learned from who? Of course it's going to have basically the same basic principles.
 
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fissure

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Second I don't believe the Japanese people would teach a foreigner more so a Korean
Both TKD and TSD are modified Shotokan, taught by Japanese to Koreans.I don't see why there would be a different attitude in regaurd to Aikido.
Final Aikijutsu doesn't do all the fancy kicks that Hapkido does and the locks are do differently also
A fellow instructor at the dojang I teach at (Tae Kwon Do) also does Hapkido.He says that the locks are differently applied than that of Aikido, this is his statement - I have experience in this.
Also this particular Hapkido class uses only low line kicking methods.He said that often members of other clubs will come and train with his class and some of these use "fancy kicks" as Kempojujutsu calls them.This seems to be the case when Hapkido and TKD are taught in the same dojang.Sort of an "in school" cross training.
Again this is not info. from my own experience, so I don't take it as gospel.However, this individual is someone I trained from white to black belt myself.I have watched his progress over the years and trust his judgement.:asian:
 

Kempojujutsu

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Fissure, You said "Both TKD and TSD are modified Shotokan, taught by Japanese to Koreans. I don't see why there would be a different attitude in reguard to aikido.
First of all Aikido is not the art I am talking about is Aikijujutsu.
Second the Japanese attitude change after the U.S.A nuked there butts. Before this they had bad attitude to ALL FOREIGNERS. Before WWII started Japan was kicking everyone's butt, including Korea. And before that can't remember the year. But when Captain Cook sailed into Toyko Bay. The Japanese where not to happy to have foreigners on thier land. They didn't come out and say. Hey why don't you guys study some aikido, jujutsu with us. To make this short and simple Japan hated ALL FOREIGNERS INCLUDEING CHINESE, KOREANS, AND EVEN AMERICANS. So if they had this type of attitude why would they teach some korean kid, aikijujtsu. Also there are NO RECORDS OF CHOI YOUN SUL in DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU BY THE JAPANESE PEOPLE. I believe that is where the conflict in the story starts. Japanese people say there are no records of this person. Koreans say he study Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
Bob :asian:
 

Chris from CT

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Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Also there are NO RECORDS OF CHOI YOUN SUL in DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU BY THE JAPANESE PEOPLE. I believe that is where the conflict in the story starts. Japanese people say there are no records of this person. Koreans say he study Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

This may not be entirely correct. I wrote in another post...

Originally posted by Chris from CT
I contacted the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Hombu in Abashiri, Hokkaido and I received a responce from Kobayashi Y., the Hombu Secratary. He states that "Choi Yong Sul has studied for some years with Takeda Sokaku, then he has founded his School inserting only some elements of our art."

from: http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479 (5th post in)

They must have some record of it for the Hombu to say that.

In the above post there are a few points of view about what people in Hapkido think.

Respectfully :asian:
 
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fissure

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First of all Aikido is not the art I am talking about
Maybe not, but it is the art that this thread is talking about.I have no idea if some Korean kid/slave/servant/circus clown or what ever trained with a Japanese candy store owner or not.Your statemnt that it could not happen because he would be hatted by the Japanese makes little sence to me.In nazi Germany, some Germans helpped Jews.Using your logic this could never have happened.
I'm not dissputing your claim that this "kid trained by way of a candy store dude" is false, I'm simlpy stating that it is possible.(the previous post by Chris seems to support this, at least apon it's face value)
I notice that you didn't reply to the meat of my post, concerning the addition of kicking motions in Hapkido, what if any are your thought on this?If you respond IN ALL CAPITALS AGAIN, I'M SURE IT WILL HELP US ALL UNDERSTAND YOU BETTER:D
My interest here is in actual comparisons of two MA, both tech. wise and in applicational theory, not in candy store owners and peep holes.
 

Kempojujutsu

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Hapkido is closer to Modern day Jujutsu A.K.A Small circle jujutsu than Aikijujutsu. At one time it could of be an offshoot of Aikijujutsu. The main defference between Aikijujutsu and Jujutsu is the circluar movements. Aiki used large movements to avoid being cut by samurai swords where jujutsu movements are smaller and don't deal with samurai swords. As for kicks Combat Hapkido as far as I see uses more low line kicks. I also have seen other styles of hapkido that is basically TKD with some jujutsu mixed in it. The art I teach is Kempojujutsu which is closer to Aikijujutsu and is not even close to what some people call American Kenpo.
Bob:asian:
 

Chris from CT

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Originally posted by fissure
Maybe not, but it is the art that this thread is talking about.I have no idea if some Korean kid/slave/servant/circus clown or what ever trained with a Japanese candy store owner or not.Your statemnt that it could not happen because he would be hatted by the Japanese makes little sence to me.In nazi Germany, some Germans helpped Jews.Using your logic this could never have happened.

I'm not dissputing your claim that this "kid trained by way of a candy store dude" is false, I'm simlpy stating that it is possible.(the previous post by Chris seems to support this, at least apon it's face value)


Small misunderstanding. The Japanese candy store owner brought Choi Yong-Sul over to Japan to work for him. It was very common during the Japanese occupation of Korea for the Japanese to take Korean boys back with them to work. GM Choi never trained under the candy store owner. Choi Yong Sul was abandoned after going to Japan with him, picked up by the police and brought to a Buddhist temple. After he left the Buddhist temple is when his martial arts training began.

Sourse: Interviews with Choi Yong-Sul and Suh Bok-Sub (GM Choi's first student)


Originally posted by fissure
I notice that you didn't reply to the meat of my post, concerning the addition of kicking motions in Hapkido, what if any are your thought on this?

If you get some time, this thread discusses where many of the kicks in Hapkido come from.
http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3479

Originally posted by fissure
My interest here is in actual comparisons of two MA, both tech. wise and in applicational theory, not in candy store owners and peep holes.

:D

We should get some Aikidoka here to discuss how they do things also. Then we can compare and contrast. This way we can have a knowlegable discussion.

Take care :)
 

Kempojujutsu

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I found this artical in 1994 issue of Black Belt. For you that think you may have this issue. It has a white cover page with Bruce Lee on the front. The artical is Battle of the Arts: Jujutsu vs. Hapkido. I want to mention this me quoting the artical and this is where I got my info from the previous post.
"Some proponents date Hapkido's origin back sveral centuries, making unsubstantiated references to Buddhist monks and royal court guards. Others note that the characters for hapkido are pronouned in japanese as "aikido", and they mistakenly assume this demostrates a relationship between the two arts. The most convincing claims, however, come from Choi Yong Sool (1904-1987), widely consider the founder of hapkido. Before he died, Choi insisted he had studied Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu for more than 20 years in Japan under master Takeda Sogaku (1860-1943). Kim Jeong-Yoon a martial arts researcher in Seoul, South Korea, says Choi was orphaned at the age of 8 or 9, then taken to Japan by a japanese family. Kim claims Choi spent four years living in a temple before Takeda, a close friend of the abbot, took him in. Choi clean Takeda's dojo for 5 years, after which the master permitted him to learn Aikijujutsu.
Yet Hapkido's history is not so cut and dried. Responding to Choi's obituary in April 1987 Black Belt, a writer for Aiki News denied in the Japanese Magazine that any of Takeda's offical students recordslist Choi as having studied with the headmaster. Furthermore, the writer seems indignant that Chang Chin-il, heit to Choi's hapkido system and author of the obituary, suggested a Japanese family as respected as Takeda's would adopt a Korean. In the April issue of Aiki News, he wrote Choi was certainly not adopted into the Takeda family and the statement about the length of training and proximity to Sogaku... should be taken with a certain skepticism.
Many aikijujutsu exponents insist the lowly Choi could not have learn their art legitimately, and that if he did acquire any skill in the style, he did so only by watching practice sessions. Yet in February 1987 Black Belt, Aikijujutsu researcher and instructor Bernie Lau wrote that one of the more famous styles related to Daito-Ryu is Hapkido. Lau also noted that Akikido founder Morihei Uyeshiba, a longtime student of Takeda, was of social postion so far below the rest of Takea's disciples that he could not even get a proper recommendation to study under Takeda. Yet Uyeshiba did study under Takeda. Couldn't Choi have done the same?"

Boy are my fingers killing me now :rofl:

I want to ask how does Hwa Rang Do fit into this? Wasn't this art a very old art. Again I don't know much about it, but I thought had read it was developed back when Korea was having it's own civil war? Could this be true? And could Hapkido orgin came from it? Just brainstorming, and hope I didn't offend anyone.
Bob:asian:
P.S I also found an artical talking about the difference in Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu. But i am going to give my fingers a rest and get ready for my fantasy football draft :rofl:
 
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H@pkid0ist

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Time To Hear From A Hap Ki Doist

I am a traditional hap Ki Doist studying under Grandmaster Jung Bai Lee. My teacher studied under a Buddhist whose name I have not been told, Ji Han Jae, and Yong Sul Choi. He studied with Choi until he passed away. I have discussed much of these debates with my teacher. My knowledge of these topics comes from one of the highest-ranking Hap Ki Doist in the world.
Aikido V/S Hap Ki Do: The two styles share very little in the way of similarities except Chinese characters in their names. Where Aikido or even small circle Aikido (Tomiki Aikido) Use their hand techniques, they rarely if ever trap their opponents body parts to keep them from letting go or pulling away and causing more damage. They have nothing in the way of striking techniques. We have quite a bit in the way of powerful and fluid striking techniques. We are a combat Martial Art, Combat proven. We train to fight against trained fighters and Martial Artists. As well, in the higher ranks we have offensive techniques. Our goal is to inflict as little damage as needed, but even the techniques that are used for this application have devastating potential.
Combat Hapkido V/S Traditional Hap Ki Do: The system of Hapkido developed by John Pelegrini is a good and effective system. Its major differences are that they have cut out techniques that he has deemed unnecessary. A traditional Hap Ki Doist Will learn many more techniques than the Combat Hapkidoist. Techniques like Judo defenses. Where Pelegrini sees these to be not needed what has been done is, effective techniques have been removed from the curriculum. Virtually every hand technique we use has a punch defense application, even those unnecessary techniques that Pelegrinis style has removed. His idea was to teach people combat techniques and use them with complete aggressiveness from day one. We break everything down to its simplest, yet still effective, parts and refine as you master and understand each technique. This makes learning easier and you learn to use each tech. at a different level and with multiple applications. We are also taught with our kicks when is best to apply. We have more kicks than TKD and do them differently. We never snap any kick, as it can cause damage to the knee if hyper-extended and with practice over time. We are taught that high kicks are used for finishing, in correlation with strike combinations, and when possible certain high kicks are great surprise kicks. Never do we initiate with a roundhouse or high sidekick, unless you want to lose the fight. All styles are great, but you have to decide what is most suited for you and your body type.

As far as this history debate, I want everyone to look at things with an open mind. Choi was taken in as a servant when he was a child. After a few years of servitude his master had developed parental emotions for this young child from another country. Even though it may have been unheard of because of how the culture was, the master of the house taught this child the family business. Because of the attitude of the time, race, and community all of the teachings had to be from observations and private tutelage. It is a given that because being a man of such high status, he could not record this boy as a student, or probably even let on about his feelings for this child. But never the less this man taught his knowledge to a small foreign boy who became like a son. This is a highly possibly scenario. Just because people disregard the possibility out of racisms doesnt mean it isnt so. It has happen throughout history in all different cultures. Even if this never happened it is obvious that Choi learned somewhere. This cannot be argued. Either way Hap Ki Do has become an effective and formidable martial art.
As far as Hwa Rang Do is concerned, it is said that its techniques and philosophies are HKDs base. True, I dont know. But it is true that the people who developed current day HRD and Kuk Sool Kwan both studied Hapkido and developed what is their system now, from Hap Ki Do.

:cool:
 
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fissure

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The system of Hapkido developed by John Pelegrini is a good and effective system.
I knew a John Pelegrini, in Ft. Laurderdale/ Pompamo, or some place down there.This was 15- 20 yrs ago.He was a TKD instructor.This is probably a different guy though.
 

Chris from CT

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Originally posted by fissure
I knew a John Pelegrini, in Ft. Laurderdale/ Pompamo, or some place down there.This was 15- 20 yrs ago.He was a TKD instructor.This is probably a different guy though.

It might have be him.

Take care :)
 
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