Aikido in the MMA ring?

Tez3

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Anyway, aikido isn't going to give you all the tools you need for MMA...or, arguably, other things.

Despite what some BJJers think no ONE style is going to give you all the tools you need for MMA.


Perhaps, and here's a thought, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts eh?
 

elder999

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Despite what some BJJers think no ONE style is going to give you all the tools you need for MMA.


Perhaps, and here's a thought, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts eh?

Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.
 

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Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.

Exactly, sensitivity to an attack, maai, timing, speed, balance, all things Aikido stresses. Nothing to do with a specific technique.
 

Tez3

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Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.

If you look at what I said, and I didn't mention Aikido, it was that no one style will give you all the tools you need. How is that not true?
 

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Agreed. For example, Kron Gracie, Ryan Hall, and Chris Holdsworth's primary art is Bjj, and it's pretty evident when those guys fight that they're using their jiujitsu expertise. Further, their high level of skill in their primary art can give them an advantage or disadvantage depending on who they're fighting.

Kron still enrages me by "doing it wrong" from a mma point of view.

We have Tkders coming up the ranks flash kicking people.

So yeah being well rounded is important. But it does not make a persons primary style irrelevant.

@elder. Holly Holm was a kickboxer as well.
 
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drop bear

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Despite what some BJJers think no ONE style is going to give you all the tools you need for MMA.


Perhaps, and here's a thought, that's why it's called MIXED martial arts eh?

Um.......

Mma is one style that gives you all the tools you need?

And yet people still train in their primary styles.
 
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drop bear

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Aikido, perhaps, even less-so-no, that's not true; it's just that the tools that it give you that apply (and I'm speaking of things that aren't simply "technique") are difficult to realize and apply, especially in that context.


Fighters don't do akido. If you are 16 and you want to be a ufc superstar you will head in the direction that is the most likely to get you there.

So akido will not have its fair share of tough competitive guys. The class will cater towards that.

So even if akido has the tools it will not have the people.

This is also the issue with Australia and mma. Brazil has bjj,America has wrestling, Australia has swimming and football.
(Sort of we do have world class muay Thai but it is a smaller group)
 

Tony Dismukes

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Don't know about that.

I will say that the way the majority of Aikido is practiced makes it impractical for MMA. That's different than saying the techniques don't work.

Certainly here's an example, although the second example was different than the traditional udekimenage, you still had the tenkan, and the lock.....just a variation.
I think it might be stretching a bit to call those examples in the cage "Aikido". The techniques shown are not unique to Aikido. The entries into the techniques and the details of the finish and the flavor of the movement are not what I typically see from Aikidoka demonstrating those techniques. I'm not sure either fighter has an Aikido background. Nevertheless, if you say that you recognize those as ways you might try to use your training in that context, I'll take your word for it.

Either way, I would note that these are not tremendously high-percentage moves in that setting. The second technique (which you are calling udekimenage but I would consider to be waki gatame) I have only seen applied from standing that one time in MMA. The first technique (which you are calling sayu nage but I would consider to be closer to a cross between sukui nage and a tai chi movement that I don't know the name of) is vanishingly rare in usage compared to double legs, single legs, suplexes, hip throws, shoulder throws, foot sweeps, and leg reaps. I don't think these are rare in applications because fighters don't know the techniques. I think they are rare because they are hard to set up in that context.
 
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Spinedoc

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Oh Tony, agreed.....and I was not meaning to propose that everyone in MMA is using Aikido all the time. They frankly aren't....just that if you look, you can see examples here and there.

There was an interview on BJJ Talk with a "Budo Jake" and Roy Dean....they both discussed Aikido and the fact that both had yudansha level training in Aikido. Both talked about how much Aikido helped to inform and grow their MMA and BJJ skills specifically with timing, distance, sensitivity, etc.

The point is, can Aikido alone survive in MMA, probably not. Can Aikido help an MMA fighter by improving his skills, absolutely.
 

Tony Dismukes

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There was an interview on BJJ Talk with a "Budo Jake" and Roy Dean....they both discussed Aikido and the fact that both had yudansha level training in Aikido. Both talked about how much Aikido helped to inform and grow their MMA and BJJ skills specifically with timing, distance, sensitivity, etc.

I can buy that. My background in Bujinkan taijutsu has influenced my interpretation of BJJ, even though I don't often use much of my taijutsu any more.

The point is, can Aikido alone survive in MMA, probably not. Can Aikido help an MMA fighter by improving his skills, absolutely.

There was a quote in an earlier thread to the effect that Aikido was really intended for people who were already expert in some other form of martial art. There might be something to that. I can look at Aikido and see elements which I suspect could help me grow and improve as a martial artist. On the other hand, I see a lot of missing pieces and training methods which seem like they would be problematic for someone with no other experience.
 

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I sort of agree with Tony, and my only reservation is about the thought of "intended," but I can totally buy the thought that it "worked out" that way, since O-Sensei was reportedely a truly dangerous guy in the military doing real-workld hand-to-hand badness to folks before going spiritual in later life (I apologize if I am offending my fellow aikidoka with my rough description, blame my Texas upbringing).

I started young with aikido (age 8, 2 years then) and then went off and did kick-punch for a long time, and came back to aikido after about 10 years in judo to get a grappling element.

I can totally understand how to use my aikido skillset as my basic "Go-To" to start an engagement (I'm not sparring, I'm only in training for the not so fun & ames of actual edefensive tactic stuff now), but only the basic-basics, get out of the way, get hands up, move around Bad Guy, get him a touch out of position and off-balance.

And THEN drop a big straight left, or leg kick, or haraigoshi or... You get the idea.
 

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Well, no it doesn't matter so much what the primary art is because they have to bring the rest of their game up to match. A fighter hoping to be successful needs to be well rounded not better at one thing than another. Of course it's obvious they are using their BJJ skills, and of course it can give them and advantage or disadvantage depending on who they are fighting, I said as much. It's one reason coaches choose opponents carefully at the start of their fighter's careers, it can make a huge different to the fight record if you pick opponents you know are weak at something your fighter is good at. Later on, if/when your fighter is getting to the top you have less choice over who they fight therefore by the time they've got to that point the fighter should have brought his lesser skills up to the standard of his primary skill.
These days though more and more people are coming straight into MMA and training the all around game, we have less single style fighters now than in the beginning, another obvious thing of course.

Well I gotta disagree here. It matters a great deal for example that Kron Gracie and Ryan Hall are high level Bjj practitioners because it makes up for their very clear weaknesses in striking ability. I mean, I suppose you could argue that it doesn't matter what the primary art is as long as long as the person is very good at it. However, that argument leads to another problem; Where's the fighter that is combining high level Aikido skills with MMA basics?
 
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Jenna

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@elder999 haha yes that figure quoted seems to vary with the quoter and who they are citing 70%, 90%, 99%.. I have even seen it extrapolated in discussion to 100% and but yes certainly when atemi is not taken merely for kicking or punching this esoteric quote translates a lot less koan.. You are Yoshinkan then your interpretation -with respect- I have no doubt would go differently from mine :) I know Aikido men spend whole nights in the bar after dojo in debating this **** haha.. still, Aikido is just not the right thing to be wheeled out in its true flavours for a MMA fight, yes? Because like your lacrosse stick it is not the right tool for that job yes?? ok make sense..

What is the lesson to be taken I ought to know then in certain internet corners where a theme of arguments is.. "if Aikido was worth **** then why do we see no evidence of it in MMA?" this has me wondering couple of things caused me to ask if any body here knew what that might be about given the clear point you make about Aikido just not a method of best fit for MMA, like surely your point is the end of the question, why is the discussion some times -maybe in certain places less moderated more partisan- go like: "no Aikido discernible in MMA therefore most likely conclusion aikido = **** QED" ?? :) x
 
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Jenna

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The point is, can Aikido alone survive in MMA, probably not. Can Aikido help an MMA fighter by improving his skills, absolutely.
Can I ask please the above point sounding reasonable, why do you think there is not much display of Aikido technique in MMA fighting?? Some yes ok Rik Ellis -son of Henry- sadly passed.. maybe Aikido should have influenced Anderson Silva when Seagal was around if it were that useful at all in mixed fighting? and but Aikido in MMA any where is rare, yes? why do you reason this in light of your point?? Like if Aikido is useful against ANY opponent, why is it not evidenced that much -SPECIFICALLY Aikido I mean not mere technique from root arts DRJJ / JJ- ? why do you think this can be the case? thank you x
 
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drop bear

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Can I ask please the above point sounding reasonable, why do you think there is not much display of Aikido technique in MMA fighting?? Some yes ok Rik Ellis -son of Henry- sadly passed.. maybe Aikido should have influenced Anderson Silva when Seagal was around if it were that useful at all in mixed fighting? and but Aikido in MMA any where is rare, yes? why do you reason this in light of your point?? Like if Aikido is useful against ANY opponent, why is it not evidenced that much -SPECIFICALLY Aikido I mean not mere technique from root arts DRJJ / JJ- ? why do you think this can be the case? thank you x

Go find a mma school and find out. I have some theories but without testing them we will never know.

I can't tell you why this wouldn't work.
And it is the same thing I mentioned on other threads. Single layered defence. Too much time and space needed to execute moves. Nothing set up.

As opposed to multiple attacks vs multiple defences. And a positional progression that creates a result.

But I don't do akido.
 
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RTKDCMB

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Don't know about that.

I will say that the way the majority of Aikido is practiced makes it impractical for MMA. That's different than saying the techniques don't work.

Certainly here's an example, although the second example was different than the traditional udekimenage, you still had the tenkan, and the lock.....just a variation.
What happens when you don't roll? I think that illustrates why some techniques shouldn't be practiced with full resistance.
 

Tony Dismukes

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What happens when you don't roll? I think that illustrates why some techniques shouldn't be practiced with full resistance.
In this context "full resistance" wouldn't mean trying to not go with the throw once the arm-break was already applied. It would mean trying to not let the other person get you into the arm-breaking position in the first place.
 

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Can I ask please the above point sounding reasonable, why do you think there is not much display of Aikido technique in MMA fighting?? Some yes ok Rik Ellis -son of Henry- sadly passed.. maybe Aikido should have influenced Anderson Silva when Seagal was around if it were that useful at all in mixed fighting? and but Aikido in MMA any where is rare, yes? why do you reason this in light of your point?? Like if Aikido is useful against ANY opponent, why is it not evidenced that much -SPECIFICALLY Aikido I mean not mere technique from root arts DRJJ / JJ- ? why do you think this can be the case? thank you x

In my opinion, Aikido works best in a chaotic combat or street situation. Not in a controlled one on one fight situation. The are a few reasons for this. I have found that Aikido works best with a committed attack, not jabbing or dancing around, but committing to a punch, strike, or grab, and it works best when you can blend instantly and they don't know what's happening.

The one time I have seen Aikido in real life was when I was in the Navy. I was young, a bunch of us were at a party, and some dude was messing with another guys girl. Guy shows up, pissed off, and pushes his girlfriend out of the way and starts to throw a punch at this other guy, bam, guy throwing the punch flies into the fall and lands on his head...fight over. He was out cold, whether from hitting the wall, landing on his head...or simply passing out (he was drunk), I don't know. At the time, I didn't have a clue as to what happened, but now I know that the guy being punched used a kaitenage technique and it happened fast, in about half a second...it didn't look pretty like in demo videos but it was very effective.

However, this is different than fighting in a controlled environment in a one on one situation where your opponent is well trained, and won't easily commit to an attack. Additionally, he understands what you are trying to do and will resist (which opens up other possibilities).

I think we don't see much Aikido because of this. Additionally, to get to a level where you can comfortable execute Aikido techniques against a very skilled opponent at high speeds takes a long time. At least a decade. For an MMA practitioner, it would be a better use of that time to train in boxing, BJJ, Judo, etc.

These are just my suppositions.
 

Tony Dismukes

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In my opinion, Aikido works best in a chaotic combat or street situation. Not in a controlled one on one fight situation. The are a few reasons for this. I have found that Aikido works best with a committed attack, not jabbing or dancing around, but committing to a punch, strike, or grab, and it works best when you can blend instantly and they don't know what's happening.

The one time I have seen Aikido in real life was when I was in the Navy. I was young, a bunch of us were at a party, and some dude was messing with another guys girl. Guy shows up, pissed off, and pushes his girlfriend out of the way and starts to throw a punch at this other guy, bam, guy throwing the punch flies into the fall and lands on his head...fight over. He was out cold, whether from hitting the wall, landing on his head...or simply passing out (he was drunk), I don't know. At the time, I didn't have a clue as to what happened, but now I know that the guy being punched used a kaitenage technique and it happened fast, in about half a second...it didn't look pretty like in demo videos but it was very effective.

However, this is different than fighting in a controlled environment in a one on one situation where your opponent is well trained, and won't easily commit to an attack. Additionally, he understands what you are trying to do and will resist (which opens up other possibilities).

I think we don't see much Aikido because of this. Additionally, to get to a level where you can comfortable execute Aikido techniques against a very skilled opponent at high speeds takes a long time. At least a decade. For an MMA practitioner, it would be a better use of that time to train in boxing, BJJ, Judo, etc.

These are just my suppositions.

I agree with this and would add a couple more ideas.

I think many of the standing wristlock/armlock controls (from ay art, not just Aikido) are appropriate as a sort of grappling "sucker-punch" equivalent in the "pre-fight" stage where someone is posturing, shoving, grabbing, and generally working themselves up to full fight mode. This "pre-fight" stage is common in real fights and in LEO encounters, but doesn't exist in an MMA contest.

I think many of the "grab my wrist" techniques from Aikido have potential application in a weapon retention context. If the opponent lets go of your wrist when you start your technique, then you are able to deploy your weapon. If not, you have a chance to apply your Aikido technique. In an MMA setting, you aren't carrying a weapon, so if you present a credible threat of using your opponent's grip against him he can simply let go and hit you.
 

Tez3

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Now I'm not going to vouch for the Aikido of this chap because I don't do Aiki. I didn't know him personally but I know the person who trained with him in MMA. Rik certainly believed that there's room for Aikido in MMA. Sadly he died al little while back so we can't ask any questions of him. He is survived by his father and his son.

Aikido vs MMA - Blitz Martial Arts Magazine

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