Aikido in the MMA ring?

[ballen0351]

The guys I train with are a lot harder to deal with than the guys I generally fight. Because intent only gets you so far. Wanting to kill a guy really is only an advantage if you are winning.

Must not have many PCP users there huh?

If you get nailed your intent goes out the window. Hopefully you have trained to fight on.

Been a cop for 15 years been "Nailed" plenty

 

[drop bear]

Must not have many PCP users there huh?
Been a cop for 15 years been "Nailed" plenty

Mostly steroids and ice here.

Otherwise look that is fine. But bad intentions don't make you any tougher than any other intentions.

 

[ballen0351]

Mostly steroids and ice here.

Otherwise look that is fine. But bad intentions don't make you any tougher than any other intentions.

Spoken like a man thats never faced someone with bad intentions......

 

[drop bear]

I have faced guys with bad intentions. They were generally not very technically proficient or very tough.

OK I know I have been sort of pushing this point. But I have found the ultimate example of the trained guy vs the bad intentions guy.

 

[ballen0351]

I have faced guys with bad intentions. They were generally not very technically proficient or very tough.

OK I know I have been sort of pushing this point. But I have found the ultimate example of the trained guy vs the bad intentions guy.

NO that is not a guy with bad intention that was a sport fight with rules and a ref and corner men and time limits etc..
We will just have to disagree because you will never convince me guys in your gym are as evil, violent, under some type of narcotic as you will run into on the street. I'm not talking about some drunk knucklehead at a bar looking for a fight I'm talking real bad dudes. Thankfully these guys are rare but they are out there and no matter how "real" you practice its not the same

 

[RTKDCMB]

And this is the crux of the thread. Because you could throw some mma gloves on jump in a cage and do it.

I can test my ability to catch punches in my own art just fine.

 

[Jenna]

This is merely my opinion, but I place Aikido (as a whole) in the same group as Tai Chi, Yoga, and similar pursuits. I don't view it as a fighting art, but more as a spiritual pursuit. You see this within Aikido itself where many of the art's pioneers complain about how much the art has softened over the years, and how the Aikido you see today is nothing like the older version of the art, which was supposedly much harder.

You take Aikido to cultivate your spirit, learn some Japanese culture, and improve your attitude. You don't learn Aikido to learn how to stop kicks and punches from hitting you in the face.

Aikido certainly has some self defense attributes, but every physical activity has some self defense attributes.

Well of course yes opinion is all I am asking and since you do not seem to be much a fan of Aikido and nor do you seem too histrionic over defending your art in your posts then I reason perhaps your perspective is useful.. You liken Aikido to Tai Chi and Yoga and I understand how you mean this, though as we know -I hope- both are more complex and extensive systems than we witness on "suppleness for girly girls and old folks" videos.. still, I know how you mean this..

When you say the art is softened, I can understand what you must be seeing and this make sense yes.. I would only suggest the art is the art, the art cannot be hard or soft, it is the application which has come from a certain training that determine its denseness or flow.. like you can make your own art hard or soft if that is how you were always taught or trained yes? That is never how I trained though perhaps that is why we were kicked out.. What maybe you see as softened yes, this is Roly Poly Aikido of the internet and friendly dojos and this to my opinion is a complete error of teaching.. I can explain the dynamic of this fyi though I do not much think it matter here as it is not what I was enquiring..

OK so it is an internet thing maybe or a male thing?? you can help me understand.. see me I have no stake in defending Aikido to any one for no minds would be altered and no purpose would be served cept to make clear I am insecure in my Aikido or to make clear I believe some thing of me is at risk, right? Yet people DO clearly feel that need to prove or defend their Aikido or other art to the extent they will acquiesce to peer pressures and step in a MMA ring where they ought not be because they are not trained for it?? Help me understand this.. Like what do they LEARN by this?? What am *I* supposed to learn were I to do this?? Has the MMA ring become the de facto official scientific proving ground for each art and therefore the arbiter of the validity or otherwise of each art.. is that correct?? then I get in the ring, get hammered and MMA declares Aikido useless and I myself run off and contemplate how I have wasted my life haha.. ???

I mean I have NEVER had to deal with a trained mixed discipline practitioner in a real situation.. nice people! and nor do I get how mixed training would assist me over Aikido to deal with an abusive father or unwanted advances from colleague at work.. it is like horses for courses.. does any of this make sense?? Anyway thank you for your kind reply I am grateful x

 

[drop bear]

I can test my ability to catch punches in my own art just fine.

Yeah........ I say very tentatively.

If you are basically facing the same punches from the same people in the same sequence then you would be able to do some very clever things.

But if the same punches are coming at you with quirky timing or angles you are going to struggle.

So I have done drills where my partner will throw a right cross at my head as hard and fast as he can. And I defend it with awesomeness. But I know exactly what is going to happen when.

 

[Tez3]

and the cage is nothing like real life so it proves nothing. You do security work you see the difference between dealing with a dude high on PCP or Crack vs playing around in a gym. Its a totally different animal. Even when we say "no rules" in the cage or whatever there are still rules the opponent is not trying to hurt you or kill you especially in a training session.

Here, we have a number of doormen and women as well as police officers who fight MMA, they enjoy it because it isn't real life. They can train and compete without having to worry because there are rules which protect them.

 

[Hanzou]

Well of course yes opinion is all I am asking and since you do not seem to be much a fan of Aikido and nor do you seem too histrionic over defending your art in your posts then I reason perhaps your perspective is useful.. You liken Aikido to Tai Chi and Yoga and I understand how you mean this, though as we know -I hope- both are more complex and extensive systems than we witness on "suppleness for girly girls and old folks" videos.. still, I know how you mean this..

When you say the art is softened, I can understand what you must be seeing and this make sense yes.. I would only suggest the art is the art, the art cannot be hard or soft, it is the application which has come from a certain training that determine its denseness or flow.. like you can make your own art hard or soft if that is how you were always taught or trained yes? That is never how I trained though perhaps that is why we were kicked out.. What maybe you see as softened yes, this is Roly Poly Aikido of the internet and friendly dojos and this to my opinion is a complete error of teaching.. I can explain the dynamic of this fyi though I do not much think it matter here as it is not what I was enquiring..

Here's a good article for you to read. This is from one of the first non-Japanese practitioners of Aikido. He discusses how his art has softened over the years;

Is Aikido a Martial Art?

OK so it is an internet thing maybe or a male thing?? you can help me understand.. see me I have no stake in defending Aikido to any one for no minds would be altered and no purpose would be served cept to make clear I am insecure in my Aikido or to make clear I believe some thing of me is at risk, right? Yet people DO clearly feel that need to prove or defend their Aikido or other art to the extent they will acquiesce to peer pressures and step in a MMA ring where they ought not be because they are not trained for it?? Help me understand this.. Like what do they LEARN by this?? What am *I* supposed to learn were I to do this?? Has the MMA ring become the de facto official scientific proving ground for each art and therefore the arbiter of the validity or otherwise of each art.. is that correct?? then I get in the ring, get hammered and MMA declares Aikido useless and I myself run off and contemplate how I have wasted my life haha.. ???

I can tell you what I learned from stepping in a MMA ring; How to defend against a trained person punching me in the face while I'm in guard, or how to punch someone in the face while still maintaining side control or mount. It was highly beneficial to me because it allowed me to apply my grappling against a trained striker. That's pretty important if I found myself in an altercation and ended up on the ground with someone trying to punch me in the face.

Again, an Aikidoka doesn't need to enter a MMA tournament to get that kind of experience. They can just go to a local MMA gym and spar some people and test their Aikido against another trained fighter. How does your Aikido work against someone trying to punch or kick you in the face? How does your Aikido work against someone trying to tackle you to the ground? How does your Aikido work against someone clinching you and trying to take you down? How does your Aikido work if someone is on top of you raining blows down on your face?

Even if you get hammered, the knowledge you gain above is invaluable in my opinion, and it'll make your Aikido better. However on the flip side if you're successful, it'll make MMA better too. Which is why Aikidoka who shy away from such training truly baffle me, and leads me to think that they avoid such things for other reasons.

I mean I have NEVER had to deal with a trained mixed discipline practitioner in a real situation.. nice people! and nor do I get how mixed training would assist me over Aikido to deal with an abusive father or unwanted advances from colleague at work.. it is like horses for courses.. does any of this make sense?? Anyway thank you for your kind reply I am grateful x

It's simple; If you can handle a trained fighter, then handling an untrained moron should be even easier. In my time in Bjj, I've sparred with college wrestlers, amateur boxers, MMA fighters, Judo and Bjj athletes, etc. After that, taking care of your fat, drunk uncle slapping around your aunt shouldn't be much of a problem.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you are basically facing the same punches from the same people in the same sequence then you would be able to do some very clever things.

But if the same punches are coming at you with quirky timing or angles you are going to struggle.

So I have done drills where my partner will throw a right cross at my head as hard and fast as he can. And I defend it with awesomeness. But I know exactly what is going to happen when.

You do know we actually spar don't you?

 

[Jenna]

Here's a good article for you to read. This is from one of the first non-Japanese practitioners of Aikido. He discusses how his art has softened over the years;

Is Aikido a Martial Art?




I can tell you what I learned from stepping in a MMA ring; How to defend against a trained person punching me in the face while I'm in guard, or how to punch someone in the face while still maintaining side control or mount. It was highly beneficial to me because it allowed me to apply my grappling against a trained striker. That's pretty important if I found myself in an altercation and ended up on the ground with someone trying to punch me in the face.

Again, an Aikidoka doesn't need to enter a MMA tournament to get that kind of experience. They can just go to a local MMA gym and spar some people and test their Aikido against another trained fighter. How does your Aikido work against someone trying to punch or kick you in the face? How does your Aikido work against someone trying to tackle you to the ground? How does your Aikido work against someone clinching you and trying to take you down? How does your Aikido work if someone is on top of you raining blows down on your face?

Even if you get hammered, the knowledge you gain above is invaluable in my opinion, and it'll make your Aikido better. However on the flip side if you're successful, it'll make MMA better too. Which is why Aikidoka who shy away from such training truly baffle me, and leads me to think that they avoid such things for other reasons.



It's simple; If you can handle a trained fighter, then handling an untrained moron should be even easier. In my time in Bjj, I've sparred with college wrestlers, amateur boxers, MMA fighters, Judo and Bjj athletes, etc. After that, taking care of your fat, drunk uncle slapping around your aunt shouldn't be much of a problem.

Hey thank you for that article, yes I am familiar and also know Ellis to often appear easily irked and perhaps pedantic and but that is politicking and actually I agree with the points you would make by posting it and yes I would hold similar views often of how AIkido is erroneously practiced.. to me again though that is not to disparage the art, rather it is to justifiably deride how it is taught and how it is trained.. So ok I will try this once more and then disappear as I am frustrated by my inability to make the point.. if you do not understand me that is entirely my fault I apologise and but thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time and courtesy to me x

SO like personally speaking my Aikido is ok against the other disciplines, not super and but ok, I have had mess around sparring both mano mano and with weapon (MT and kali as well as plenty boxers) though I do not take it to any level because why would I??

Helped me to spot weaknesses and flaws in my art yes of course, that is common sense.. I was not persuaded to take up MT because what defence does core Aikido suggest to me against a flying knee.. no.. I have never had cause to need that.. and when actually would I in my every day reality??? so far never.. that is my point do you follow??

So I have survived multiple attempted assaults and actual assault situations three of which handled by Met Police bla bla bla and but never were these people martial artists.. THAT is a possibility only according to statistics and not real reality and so what will it really prove me in the MMA ring?? I am not ever going to meet these people in a situation where they want to harm me?? that is proven to me because it has never happened.. When physical violence HAS been visited upon me I do not automatically even WANT to pin the person to the floor it is like my father ffs.. and when I HAD to do that in another situation my Aikido was without fault.. does this not make sense?? What is now the lesson that I am beaten in the ring against trained multi-discipline opponent?? There ARE NOT MMA assailants any where that I am.. there is no such thing except in the fairy land of statistics.. are these MMA assailants a reality any where?? What is to be proven and to whose benefit??

SO like thank you again for your perseverance and courtesy I think you are a genuine person x

 

[RTKDCMB]

I have yet to see that happen anywhere except in demos.

I have already shown you that, in this thread. Probably from the same video.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Of course they're asking you about wrist locks. Wrist locks are legal in Bjj competition, and are great submissions when you have someone in an inferior position. :shrug:

BJJ has wrist locks, weird, awkward ones that aren't deadly:

 

[Spinedoc]

In a discussion of two people one of them. Which is why I asked the question.

It wasn't a demo. It was a competition.

Ummm, it wasn't a demo OR competition. It was an old video of Seagal Sensei conducting a seminar and teaching the correct way to throw in randori situations. Context people...context.

 

[drop bear]

Here, we have a number of doormen and women as well as police officers who fight MMA, they enjoy it because it isn't real life. They can train and compete without having to worry because there are rules which protect them.

Here we have a number of mma fighters who become doormen. They enjoy it because it isn't real life and they don't have rules to restrict them. They can fight without having to worry about fighting a quality prepared oponant.

 

[drop bear]

You do know we actually spar don't you?

I thought you didn't because self-defense or something.

 

[drop bear]

Hey thank you for that article, yes I am familiar and also know Ellis to often appear easily irked and perhaps pedantic and but that is politicking and actually I agree with the points you would make by posting it and yes I would hold similar views often of how AIkido is erroneously practiced.. to me again though that is not to disparage the art, rather it is to justifiably deride how it is taught and how it is trained.. So ok I will try this once more and then disappear as I am frustrated by my inability to make the point.. if you do not understand me that is entirely my fault I apologise and but thank you for your reply, I appreciate your time and courtesy to me x

SO like personally speaking my Aikido is ok against the other disciplines, not super and but ok, I have had mess around sparring both mano mano and with weapon (MT and kali as well as plenty boxers) though I do not take it to any level because why would I??

Helped me to spot weaknesses and flaws in my art yes of course, that is common sense.. I was not persuaded to take up MT because what defence does core Aikido suggest to me against a flying knee.. no.. I have never had cause to need that.. and when actually would I in my every day reality??? so far never.. that is my point do you follow??

So I have survived multiple attempted assaults and actual assault situations three of which handled by Met Police bla bla bla and but never were these people martial artists.. THAT is a possibility only according to statistics and not real reality and so what will it really prove me in the MMA ring?? I am not ever going to meet these people in a situation where they want to harm me?? that is proven to me because it has never happened.. When physical violence HAS been visited upon me I do not automatically even WANT to pin the person to the floor it is like my father ffs.. and when I HAD to do that in another situation my Aikido was without fault.. does this not make sense?? What is now the lesson that I am beaten in the ring against trained multi-discipline opponent?? There ARE NOT MMA assailants any where that I am.. there is no such thing except in the fairy land of statistics.. are these MMA assailants a reality any where?? What is to be proven and to whose benefit??

SO like thank you again for your perseverance and courtesy I think you are a genuine person x

Depends why you train. If you are focused on beating an assailant who attacks you on the street then fair enough. (Sort of)

If you are interested in how martial arts works from a pull it apart and play with it level then you might want to take it into competitions against trained guys.

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ has wrist locks, weird, awkward ones that aren't deadly:

Uh, there's nothing awkward about what Keenan was doing, and they have just as much chance of snapping your wrist as other types of wrist locks.

You also need to go old school;

I've also personally experienced this one, and can attest to how much it sucks;

BTW, I hate that particular wrist lock because the over hook is a big part of my guard game.

 

[mograph]

I think that the OP is asking:
a) "in order to do well in an MMA bout, what skills would I need to add to my aikido skillset?"
b) "how can I learn those skills?"

Is that right, Jenna?