African Presence in China

ATACX GYM

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I have honestly looked into many of the "facts" quoted and have never seen any proof of the claims. That we all share a genetic DNA that can be traced to the place we now call "Africa" I agree on. But, when the jump is made that it translates to "black africa" as we think of it now and that black africans are responsible for everything from martial arts to the greeks to the chinese etc. Then I am still holding out for more proof if it exists.

Much of what I see is a twisting of facts to support claims. For example, Jesus was black. Seems like that would have been a very important point if Jesus was not one of the Jewish/Hebrew people. But, I often see the "proof" that Jesus was black due to a misquoting of the following verse.



I have seen it quoted without "white" in it to change the whole meaning of the phrase. It would then read, the hair on his head was like wool to describe it's texture and then say that is proof that Jesus was black. Huh? When "scholarship" like that starts to crop up, it taints the rest of what else follows as suspect.


Being Jewish is not the same as being Hebrew. Being Jewish is a reference to one's religion, and being Hebrew is a reference to a ethnic group if I'm not mistaken. There are plenty of pieces of evidence for the first martial arts being crafted in Africa...but that's not the same as saying that, say, Shaolin chuan fa was crafted in Africa. Many of the elements of ancient martial arts in many respects can be traced back to Africa nad the African influence in the same sense that...say...Ed Parker's Kenpo karate can be traced back to the Mitose's and China's influence and martial legacy. In the same sense that we can trace Bruce Lee's JKD back to the ancient martial arts of China and we can trace China's martial arts being influenced by the martial arts of India and India's martial arts being strongly influenced by the martial arts of Africa.

The difference being in all of this...due to racist ignorant and indifferent scholars and scholarship? Africa is the only one of the above who is wholly ignored and denied its very prominent role in the crafting of and legacy of the first martial arts. This is a deliberate and horrible oversight that we in more enlightened times are very obligated to rectify. The process of said rectification is going on not only with Jedi but with people like me and I think all good people should at least be willing to overthrow the miseducation we all received from times agone that separate us and cause strife amongst us following racial class gender ethnic etc etc lines.
 

ATACX GYM

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So the good Dr. Rashidi quotes a "Japanese" proverb. Can anyone find an example of this proverb before the good Dr. dredges it up? Nice thing about using a proverb as a reference point is that you don't have to credit it to a specific author or book. But using a proverb or an old wive's tale as proof of something is not exactly the kind of research I would expect from a Dr.


frank, you're better than that. You should know that Dr. Rashidi does alot more than quote a Japanese proverb. That's not only insulting it's disingenous. I have his works on the matter. There's a book full of evidence of all kinds, and they're alot more than just a proverb man. Hopefully somehow you didn't know that...hopefully my assumption that you DID know that Dr. Rashidi had and has ALOT more than just a "japanese" proverb to back up his position is incorrect.
 

ATACX GYM

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Does it say "Moorish" or does it say "black"? Did the japanese have any contact with a specific people known as the "moors" when that was written?

That is a big leap if the word only said "black". You have to look into the cultural aspect and find out what the phrase "black blood" meant to the audience. Much like if I were to say you need to have a "black heart" to kill something. It doesn't mean that you have to have African ancestory to kill someone, we are using it as an adjective to describe an emotional quality. Just as if we said, "thick skin", do we mean that the person in question has a tougher or more layers of skin? No, it is a phrase that has a cultural meaning to us and not a literal translation.

I see this alot with psuedo-linguistic translations, they might have a literal translation of something but no concept of the symbolism that it is supposed to represent, or it is symbolic in meaning and it is looked at literally.


Okay. This is partially an issue of ignorance of language and cultural history...especially amongst people here in the USA. I know because Spanish is one of my childhood languages, and I'm pursuing my Ph.d. in African Studies so again I'm especially well informed in this matter.

First understand that there has always been a difference between the COLOR black..."negro" and Black PEOPLE..."Moro"... in the elder Iberian language. The term MORO is an Iberian Spanish phrase that at first specifically referred to Black African Islamized people. This phrase became popular due to the incursion of the Almohades and Almoravids. There was no reference to "Moors" in Japan during the time that you speak of because not only did that period predate the arrival of the Almohades and Almoravids in Iberia [ which these same Black Africans renamed ANDALUSIA or in some literature AL-ANDALUSIA ] but nobody spoke Spanish in that area either. So NO...the Japanese didn't refer to us as Moors. But since I also have family who are Japanese? I CAN tell you how they referred to us, and trace it back to the phrase 'kokojin"..."Black foreigner". I'll do so a little later cuz I'm pressed for time.

Toldja that I'm uniquely more informed about this area than perhaps many more are.

The phrase "Black" never had a negative connotation in ancient times. [ Remember even the phrase "ancient times" has varying meanings, because what might be "ancient" for Europe is certainly not "ancient" to China and is nowhere near "ancient" to Africa ]. There was no phrase or saying like "black heart". Such phrases and sayings came about centuries later only after the fall of powerful African civilizations, and the ascension of a racism so powerful and rabid that it pervaded European society so much that even European language became corrupted by it. Every day expressions began to carry the tint of racial hatred and intolerance.


Now...the term MORO is the actual Iberian term that later became MOOR in English. That term specified, as I said before, Black African Islamized people specifically at first but later came to be used for all Black people. For instance, the mighty and legendary Queen and probable Amazon Nugaymath Turquia...the "Star of Archers"...ally of King Barclay was called a Moor. She fell in one of the mighty battles against against El Cid, and her fall and El Cid's victory over her was immortalized in poetry and song.

In the West, the term MORO has become MORENO and still bears the imprint of racial identity and racial distinction. Here, oftentimes I'm referred to as "moreno" by my Central American and Boricua family and my lighter brown and White skinned kin are called "moreno claro". CLARO literally translates as "clear". There would be no need for the qualification "clear" or "lighter skinned" if "moreno" didn't mean BLACK or DARK.

Gtg but I'll be back later...
 

punisher73

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Okay. This is partially an issue of ignorance of language and cultural history...especially amongst people here in the USA. I know because Spanish is one of my childhood languages, and I'm pursuing my Ph.d. in African Studies so again I'm especially well informed in this matter.

First understand that there has always been a difference between the COLOR black..."negro" and Black PEOPLE..."Moro"... in the elder Iberian language. The term MORO is an Iberian Spanish phrase that at first specifically referred to Black African Islamized people. This phrase became popular due to the incursion of the Almohades and Almoravids. There was no reference to "Moors" in Japan during the time that you speak of because not only did that period predate the arrival of the Almohades and Almoravids in Iberia [ which these same Black Africans renamed ANDALUSIA or in some literature AL-ANDALUSIA ] but nobody spoke Spanish in that area either. So NO...the Japanese didn't refer to us as Moors. But since I also have family who are Japanese? I CAN tell you how they referred to us, and trace it back to the phrase 'kokojin"..."Black foreigner". I'll do so a little later cuz I'm pressed for time.

Toldja that I'm uniquely more informed about this area than perhaps many more are.

The phrase "Black" never had a negative connotation in ancient times. [ Remember even the phrase "ancient times" has varying meanings, because what might be "ancient" for Europe is certainly not "ancient" to China and is nowhere near "ancient" to Africa ]. There was no phrase or saying like "black heart". Such phrases and sayings came about centuries later only after the fall of powerful African civilizations, and the ascension of a racism so powerful and rabid that it pervaded European society so much that even European language became corrupted by it. Every day expressions began to carry the tint of racial hatred and intolerance.


Now...the term MORO is the actual Iberian term that later became MOOR in English. That term specified, as I said before, Black African Islamized people specifically at first but later came to be used for all Black people. For instance, the mighty and legendary Queen and probable Amazon Nugaymath Turquia...the "Star of Archers"...ally of King Barclay was called a Moor. She fell in one of the mighty battles against against El Cid, and her fall and El Cid's victory over her was immortalized in poetry and song.

In the West, the term MORO has become MORENO and still bears the imprint of racial identity and racial distinction. Here, oftentimes I'm referred to as "moreno" by my Central American and Boricua family and my lighter brown and White skinned kin are called "moreno claro". CLARO literally translates as "clear". There would be no need for the qualification "clear" or "lighter skinned" if "moreno" didn't mean BLACK or DARK.

Gtg but I'll be back later...

I should have been clearer when I asked if the japanese had any contact with a people called the "moors". What I meant was a specific reference to as you put it "black foreigners" when the proverb was written versus using the word "black" to describe a personality trait.
 
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Moor mean dark/black, not Muslim, since Muslim/Islam is a religion and not an ethnic group. The Moors did not only exist during the dark ages when they were member of Islam, the Moors can be traced back to Homo sapien sapien age, and the Homo erectus age (the great migration/out of Africa). The Japanese people are descendants of the Ainu and the San (Bushmen) people. All you need to do is google search Bushman or San tribe and you get to find images of them, and see for yourself if there is any resemblance between them and the East Asians.
 

Kinghercules

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For several months I have come across some revealing information about China's history. Largely being ignored by Historians, it is revealed that China's early dynasties were founded and ruled by Africans. They brought with them agriculture, a spiritual system, mathematics, science, pharmacology, astrology, and Martial Arts/military strategy.

Here is an article by Khalifa A. Khaliq
http://www.blackjadeworld.com/article1.html

Here is another article by Clyde Winters
http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/948

Those are a couple of articles I am sharing. I have even taught these facts to my students in Karate class.

Here is my blog I have written called They Came Before Bodhidharma. This blog is compiled of 6 years of my research into finding factual origins of the Martial Arts mainly focusing on East Asia.
http://jonathan-bynoe.blogspot.com/2011/07/they-came-before-bodhidharma.html

As a Pan-Afrikanist myself I understand what you are tryin to put forth.
But thru out my studies and over the years Ive come to understand that the early Chinese ppl were not Afrikan as to say str8 from the continent but just dark skinned ppl. You are talkin about thousands of centuries passing and the ppl that migrated to that region no longer had the Afrikan features.

There were and are many ppl on the planet that are Black but not Afrikans and I think that distinction needs to be made when we start tralkin about the histories.
 

Kinghercules

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Africa is a huge continent. Peoples of Northern Africa differs greatly then Southern Africa, East from West. DNA currently is the authority, it over rides the old story traditions which are not as reliable, it over rides, but supported by evidence of Anthropology- which isn't always exact. The problem of DNA it doesn't provide cultural evidence.It does provide the best proof. So some logically make a jump. Well if DNA says we are all form Africa then Africa is the source of all things. Those of African decent in other countries are and where not always looked upon highly, such claims as Africans in China, and a Black Shogun lend more to credibility of a race than a fact. Theoretically, blacks may have been in ancient China, the ancient world was very transit. It is plausible Africans individually lived in China. But clearly, not a significant number to influence culture or the Chinese race, unlike the possibility of the Polynesian race having African genetics.

I agree. I would say that the Ancient Chinese werent Afrikans but dark skinned Chinese and I think that just because you're dark doesnt make you Afrikan. Just look at South East Asia. Even today in China you have brown skin Chinese ppl when you get out to the suburbs.

But I dont agree on the DNA thing. Every since they came out with that they (white scholars) have used it to try to prove the Ancient Egyptians werent Afrikan ppl. If they're not gonna let anyone else do the research then how we know they're not lying?
 

mograph

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We should be aware of any bias that treats all Africans or all Chinese as the same. Psychologically, this is referred to as outgroup homogeneity bias.

... if you're neither African nor Chinese.
 

punisher73

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I agree. I would say that the Ancient Chinese werent Afrikans but dark skinned Chinese and I think that just because you're dark doesnt make you Afrikan. Just look at South East Asia. Even today in China you have brown skin Chinese ppl when you get out to the suburbs.

But I dont agree on the DNA thing. Every since they came out with that they (white scholars) have used it to try to prove the Ancient Egyptians werent Afrikan ppl. If they're not gonna let anyone else do the research then how we know they're not lying?

I haven't read anything about the ancient Egyptians NOT being African. I have only read reports that the ancient egyptians were not black with negroid features (using the designation of the un-pc way of identifying the "3 main races" caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid), although they had dark skin. For example, people in India have dark skin and have the same skin tone as many blacks, but we don't identify them as being "black".

I think alot of the designations are arbitrary and don't really hold any value, as the example above points out. In the end, I think the labels just turn us into "star bellied sneetches" lol
 

Kinghercules

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I haven't read anything about the ancient Egyptians NOT being African. I have only read reports that the ancient egyptians were not black with negroid features (using the designation of the un-pc way of identifying the "3 main races" caucasoid, negroid and mongoloid), although they had dark skin. For example, people in India have dark skin and have the same skin tone as many blacks, but we don't identify them as being "black".

I think alot of the designations are arbitrary and don't really hold any value, as the example above points out. In the end, I think the labels just turn us into "star bellied sneetches" lol

Black without negroid features.......yeah right.
Lets be real about this.....in those times what else were they besides Afrikans? If they werent from there then they werent Afrikans. Its not like today were you have white ppl born and raised in Africa and claim to be Afrikans.
All the dynasties of Kemet were started by Afrikan/Black kings.
The Arab Egyptologist Zahi Hawass said that the Kemetic ppl werent Black.
 

frank raud

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frank, you're better than that. You should know that Dr. Rashidi does alot more than quote a Japanese proverb. That's not only insulting it's disingenous. I have his works on the matter. There's a book full of evidence of all kinds, and they're alot more than just a proverb man. Hopefully somehow you didn't know that...hopefully my assumption that you DID know that Dr. Rashidi had and has ALOT more than just a "japanese" proverb to back up his position is incorrect.

What I would assume is someone would have more than a proverb to base a contentious theory around. However, what was presented here is the proverb as proof of the concept. Question remains, can anyone find this proverb outside of Dr.Rashidi's work? Can it be found in an ancient Japanese book?

Ras,while I may not agree with your beliefs,you generally present an articulate argument for them. I would not expect you to present a foriegn proverb as proof. That is what was done here. Perhaps our young Jedi needs to study more so he can present a better arguement for his theories.
 

Neijia

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Afrocentrism aside I think there is a degree of truth to it.

1. The world cools and heats up. Its been doing this several times since modern human evolved. Look at a map durring the ice age and look at where arable land is....its directly along the "pyramid belt"
2. With an ice age, water levels are lower, which means its easier for boats to travel between continents.
3. People from along the equator had no where else to go besides lateral making the earth a very, very small place. This is why S. Americans look more Asian and makes for more crossover between China, Mexico, Africa and India/Persia. Gavin Menzies was right about some of the correlation, but his timing of it being relatively modern was off.

So....yes..taiji was likely influenced by Egypt, So was Greece, and what influenced Egypt? Maybe people from Mexico. I met a minority group in China who's art was Inca..exactly. They said they came from a continent in the East. I just asked them. They weren't educated, just told me what they knew. A zapoteca woman told me that the Chinese and Zapotecas were ancient friends.

It makes sense to me at least. China was arable 30,000 years ago. That is quite a head start. The oldest runes are from a turkic people in China. The world under ice age is incredibly small. A narrow band with low tide.
 

mograph

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People fought, they figured out some techniques, they systematized them.
People moved around, they shared things. They probably shared some fighting techniques.

Now then ... what's for lunch? :D
 

Xue Sheng

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Of for crying out loud…. Is this thing still going on

It makes sense to me at least. China was arable 30,000 years ago. That is quite a head start. The oldest runes are from a turkic people in China. The world under ice age is incredibly small. A narrow band with low tide.

And another thing the Ice age, when humans were on the planet was considerably bigger than a coastline at low tide, there is no geological proof to support the you made there statement. And where is the archeological proof to support the oldest ruins in China being Turkic.

Now if Newton and Leibniz can come up with calculus at exactly the same time independent of each other I think it is HIGHLY likely that humans can figure out similar ways to kill, maime and beat each other up independently of each other as well
 

Kinghercules

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What I would assume is someone would have more than a proverb to base a contentious theory around. However, what was presented here is the proverb as proof of the concept. Question remains, can anyone find this proverb outside of Dr.Rashidi's work? Can it be found in an ancient Japanese book?

Ras,while I may not agree with your beliefs,you generally present an articulate argument for them. I would not expect you to present a foriegn proverb as proof. That is what was done here. Perhaps our young Jedi needs to study more so he can present a better arguement for his theories.

You know if you go to some of the rural parts of China you will find many Chinese ppl with a brown complexion.....and you cant say its a tan because it freezes over there as well.
 

frank raud

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Nevermind, I'm going to argue with a tree.

if I was to counter argue with the DNA proof that King Tut was Celtic, we might get into an interesting discussion, except I don't beleive that anymore than the drivel on this thread.
 

clfsean

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if I was to counter argue with the DNA proof that King Tut was Celtic, we might get into an interesting discussion, except I don't beleive that anymore than the drivel on this thread.

Here's my thing... if there are people in rural China (where it freezes no less) that are dark... explain them...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalmaritimemuseum/3027010105/

know what I mean?

I mean it's cold there too ... like year round... they're dark... they must be African too, right? By his reasoning, right? Or did I read that wrong?

Going to find a surly, argumentative tree...

Good luck Frank... I think I've got the better debate opponent.
 

Neijia

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Its not a European look at world history, its what I learned by asking minority groups in China, Turks, Tibetans, and MesoAmerican natives. Knowledge travels horizontally. Low water levels mean higher islands. All of those stone buildings on tiny islands were once vast plains people farmed. Easier to island hop that way. Better to island hop than travel North and South. As a result China and Egypt may have more to do with each other than Norwegians and Zulu.
 

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