A sad state of affairs...

Hanzou

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So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.

So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?
 
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Hanzou

Hanzou

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Blue belts have holes in their game .

I'm a higher rank than blue and definitely have holes in my game, but I figured out how to grab limbs and cloth as a white belt.
 

jobo

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So I'm watching this video in absolute shock. A blue belt in Bjj being unable to do a basic takedown on a standing opponent despite having ample opportunity. I don't know what the rules were for this exercise, but no one grabbed a sleeve, under hooked, gripped the back of the neck, clenched, went for a single leg, or anything. It seemed like they were all doing some lazy waist grab.

So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?

Isnt it just what we discussed on the other thread ? Bjj isnt particularly effective against a good striker with good movement
 
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Hanzou

Hanzou

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Isnt it just what we discussed on the other thread ? Bjj isnt particularly effective against a good striker with good movement

Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.

Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.
 

jobo

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Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.

Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.
Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,

Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything
 

Tony Dismukes

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Honestly, Id suspect thats pretty typical these days. It takes a significant amount of time and work getting comfortable entering for a takedown against a skilled boxer. Most BJJ schools these days seem to spend the vast majority of their time just on ground grappling with no strikes. MMA classes do much better in this regard, but unfortunately in schools that have both MMA and BJJ it seems that only a minority of students cross over and do both.

I do agree with the narrator that this sort of exercise is much easier for the grappler if they also have some experience with striking. That experience makes them more comfortable getting into the pocket for a good shot instead of putting their head down and rushing in from out of range the way most of the students in the video were trying to do.
 

jobo

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Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,

Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything

Plus the more room you have to move, the more it favours the stiker, , stick them in a tight space were you can trap them in a corner and it may have had a different iut come or maybe not, they seemed to loose enthuiasm arter they had eated a couple of stiff jabs
 

Tony Dismukes

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Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,

Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything
Yeah, theres a real difference between someone who grew up in the art vs a casual hobbyist blue belt. Royce wasnt actually in the top tier of BJJ competitors, but he was a professional with a lifetime of experience.
 
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Hanzou

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Yes but the gracies were exceptional, this appears to be some reasonably average students, up against a boxing instructor, so he js presumably quite good where they are Not particulsrly so,

Im sure the graces could have ties him i. Up in knots very quickly, but then you would need a world class striker to complete against for it to mean anything

If the flaw is in Bjj itself, it wouldn't have mattered how exceptional the Gracies were, they (and their students) wouldn't have been able to deal with strikers.

Again, I believe its the training focus in modern schools. Coming out of a Relson Gracie affiliate, I know that our fundamentals program was loaded with takedowns and clench fighting. I saw none of that in the video above.
 
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I do agree with the narrator that this sort of exercise is much easier for the grappler if they also have some experience with striking. That experience makes them more comfortable getting into the pocket for a good shot instead of putting their head down and rushing in from out of range the way most of the students in the video were trying to do.

I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.
 

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I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.
Same here with my Muay Thai experience.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I can agree with this. My background in karate and boxing definitely made me more adept at controlling range and setting up better takedowns because I was able to trade punches and judge distance.

Same here with my Muay Thai experience.
I believe this is why Royce went to the trouble of earning a black belt in karate. Not because he wanted to use karate techniques, but to give him the understanding of striking range and the ability to read a striking opponent.
 

jobo

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If the flaw is in Bjj itself, it wouldn't have mattered how exceptional the Gracies were, they (and their students) wouldn't have been able to deal with strikers.

Again, I believe its the training focus in modern schools. Coming out of a Relson Gracie affiliate, I know that our fundamentals program was loaded with takedowns and clench fighting. I saw none of that in the video above.
That not a reasonable argument, if you take exceptional atheletes and a decade or so to learn bjj, they they will be pretty dam good, maybe they could take down an exceptional boxer in a ring were movement is limited, maybe not,

Average atheletes are average atheletes no matter what they learn, against a much better athelete of any style neVqcer mind boxing they will struggle.

Its pointless identifying exceptional bjjers as proof of its general effectivness, as generally they are just average
 
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That not a reasonable argument, if you take exceptional atheletes and a decade or so to learn bjj, they they will be pretty dam good, maybe they could take down an exceptional boxer in a ring were movement is limited, maybe not,

Average atheletes are average atheletes no matter what they learn, against a much better athelete of any style neVqcer mind boxing they will struggle.

Its pointless identifying exceptional bjjers as proof of its general effectivness, as generally they are just average

Eh... But the entire family isn't full of exceptional athletes and they all did fine against strikers. Rorion (sp?) and Relson definitely aren't known to be exceptional professional fighters, but those guys could stuff strikers just fine.

Also there's plenty of exceptional athletes in Kung Fu/Wushu (for example) and they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire with their practical Kung Fu.
 

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That not a reasonable argument, if you take exceptional atheletes and a decade or so to learn bjj, they they will be pretty dam good, maybe they could take down an exceptional boxer in a ring were movement is limited, maybe not,

Average atheletes are average atheletes no matter what they learn, against a much better athelete of any style neVqcer mind boxing they will struggle.

Its pointless identifying exceptional bjjers as proof of its general effectivness, as generally they are just average
Not necessarily disagreeing, but I will point out that most of the Gracies (Royce in particular) are not exceptional athletes in the sense of having above average genetic gifts. They are exceptional in the sense of training from an early age with top-notch coaches and having a lot expected from them. That sort of learning environment tends to produce superior athletes.
 

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Eh... But the entire family isn't full of exceptional athletes and they all did fine against strikers. Rorion (sp?) and Relson definitely aren't known to be exceptional professional fighters, but those guys could stuff strikers just fine.

Also there's plenty of exceptional athletes in Kung Fu/Wushu (for example) and they aren't exactly lighting the world on fire with their practical Kung Fu.
Your arguing with things i havent said again.

I didnt say they were profesional fighters, i dpsaid they were exceptional atheletes,

Is that actually in doubt?

Abd unless the acerage bjj is as good as the graces, which they clearly can not be, then what the gracies could do, has no bearing at all on what the average bjj can do, just as marvin haggler had no bearing on my boxing skills
 
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jobo

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Not necessarily disagreeing, but I will point out that most of the Gracies (Royce in particular) are not exceptional athletes in the sense of having above average genetic gifts. They are exceptional in the sense of training from an early age with top-notch coaches and having a lot expected from them. That sort of learning environment tends to produce superior athletes.
Maybe, that ztill makes them exceptional atheletes,
 

Tony Dismukes

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Maybe, that ztill makes them exceptional atheletes,
It does, but were starting to see the difference genetic gifts make now that BJJ has spread and some people who also have exceptional natural ability are coming up with the same level of hard work and great coaching that the Gracies had.
 

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