A question.

[Ironbear24]

I went to do a roundhouses and accidentally hit the bag with the middle part of my shin, the bag went wild and flew far and shook violently as it flew about. I did this more and more and realized that there is so much more power using the middle of the shin as he striking surface. So my question is why do we ever bother using the ball of the foot for roundhouses or the lower part of the shin/top of the ankle if the middle of the shin is show much more powerful?

Are they benefits to the other ways? I cannot ask my sifu at the moment because he is not here right now. I am left to basically lock everything up.

 

[Andrew Green]

There is a reason full contact fighters use the shin to hit and not the ankle or ball of the foot...

You give up some control / accuracy I suppose, and speed if you are throwing it Thai style, making it a little less useful for point fighting, but more useful for doing damage. Of course if you are wearing shoes, or boots that changes things a little too.

But really it's largely just little details, kick in the way that suits your needs.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The toe, if you are conditioned, or the ball of the foot will give you pin point effect.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I went to do a roundhouses and accidentally hit the bag with the middle part of my shin, the bag went wild and flew far and shook violently as it flew about. I did this more and more and realized that there is so much more power using the middle of the shin as he striking surface. So my question is why do we ever bother using the ball of the foot for roundhouses or the lower part of the shin/top of the ankle if the middle of the shin is show much more powerful?

Are they benefits to the other ways? I cannot ask my sifu at the moment because he is not here right now. I am left to basically lock everything up.

The shin kick is not more powerful than the ball or the flat of your foot. This can be easily proven by understanding geometry. Your hip is the fulcrum; the leg is the lever. The longer the lever is, the more speed (and therefore power, since force = mass times acceleration) it has when it lands. Your leg is 'longer' at the end than further towards the lever. Therefore, you generate maximum velocity at the toes when you kick with a roundhouse. Mass is the same everywhere because your leg is your leg no matter what part you hit with.

Now, having said that, what happened when the bag 'went wild' when you kicked it with your shin? Basically, you pushed it, that's what. That part of your leg was moving slower than the end of your leg (instep, toes, ball of the foot, etc). How could it be moving slower? Look at a record spinning on a record player. The entire disk makes 33 1/3 revolutions per minute (typical LP record) so it is all moving at the same speed, BUT the outer edge of the record is covering more distance in that time, so it is moving 'faster' in that sense.

The reasons we kick with different parts of the leg vary with technique and style of the art chosen.

Some arts kick with the shin. Typically they do a lot of work to desensitize the shin and toughen the shinbone to be able to withstand impact. But they have a couple advantages. First, in a typical fight where the fighters use their shin bones, they use them not as fight-enders, but to damage the opponent's legs over a period of time, by repeated low strikes. Second, the shin is not made of many delicate bones, which cannot take that kind of abuse over and over again over a long fight.

Some arts kick with the instep or top of the foot. This is typical with bag work as well, since it allows the foot to 'wrap around' or conform to the shape of the back. The instep is also able to take some abuse, although not as much as a conditioned and desensitized shin can.

Some arts (such as mine) kick with the ball of the foot (the part behind the toes on the bottom for those who don't know what that is). To do this, the toes have to be curled up and away from the impact, which takes some training to be able to do effectively.

Why kick with the ball of the foot? It's a smaller area. Smaller area means more pounds per square inch or PSI. Given the same power, a smaller impact area is going to sink deeper into the impact zone and (hopefully) do more damage.

Also keep in mind that the further away you can stand while delivering an effective kick, the safer you will be in general. To kick with the shin, you must be closer than if you kick with the instep or ball of the foot.

I won't say that one type of kick is better than another. They are used by different arts for different purposes.

I would suggest that you should talk to your instructor and do what he or she says you should do.

 

[Buka]

It's a matter of distance/range/reach. The next progression (moving in) would be knee strikes. And the accompanying punches and elbows etc.

 

[JR 137]

As has been said, different surfaces are used for different ranges and different amounts of pressure.

The middle of the shin is closer to your knee, therefore you need to be closer to your opponent.

The ball of the foot has a smaller surface area, and therefore greater pressure upon impact when all else is equal. It's like difference between if I step on your foot with sneakers on vs high heeled shoes.

As Bill Mattocks said, all things being equal, the instep of the foot will be moving faster than the middle of the shin. It has a whipping effect to it.

Everyone's built differently and has different mechanics because of it. Do what feels best to you. But more importantly, do what truly works for you. An opponent won't stand still like a punching bag will. You won't have the choice of any striking surface at any target at any moment you want (unless you're fighting someone who has no business fighting against you). The ball of the foot or even single toe may be the most devastating weapon, but will it be possible to use? Will the shin be your highest percentage weapon or will the instep be? That all changes depending on who's in front of you, what target you're aiming for, and their defense. And your shoes.

What you're basically asking is why jab when you can throw a full power lead hand cross? There's a time and place for both.

The best technique is the one that works at that moment and ends the fight and/or seemlessly leads to the next technique.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I went to do a roundhouses and accidentally hit the bag with the middle part of my shin, the bag went wild and flew far and shook violently as it flew about. I did this more and more and realized that there is so much more power using the middle of the shin as he striking surface. So my question is why do we ever bother using the ball of the foot for roundhouses or the lower part of the shin/top of the ankle if the middle of the shin is show much more powerful?

Are they benefits to the other ways? I cannot ask my sifu at the moment because he is not here right now. I am left to basically lock everything up.

Everything isn't about power. Certain techniques are used because of the advantages of the technique. Can you kick someone with your shin? Yes. Does it mean you should always kick with the shin? No
The shin isn't more powerful, it's just a harder piece of bone, especially if it's conditioned. Kicking with the shin requires that your shin is conditioned properly. But even a good leg check can defeat strong shins.

My shins aren't conditioned and I've been able to put baseball sized knots on people with a good leg check.

Kicks are like punches in terms of making the bag swing. If your kick made the bag fly far away then you may be doing quite a bit of pushing with that leg. When you kick the bag it should crumple and move a little. If you were to take a baseball bat and hit the same bag as hard as you can, the bag will crumple and not swing wildly. Between swinging a wooden bad and kicking, I'm sure many of use can probably swing that bat harder than we can kick.

 

[geezer]

@ Ironbear24 I would disagree with Bill on this one. I do not believe that the bag "flew far and shook violently" because you pushed it with your shin. I think you really belted it good! Here's why:

Although I agree with what Bill said about the greater range, velocity and focused impact of striking with the ball of the foot or top of the instep, there are other factors to consider. Let me explain. The Escrima I practice teaches a "bastard round kick" delivered to low targets, and when using it, I favor striking with the shin. It is, in fact, a very powerful point of contact. This is because it is essentially near the point of the center of percussion. This is a concept from physics that many weapons arts are aware of, rather like the "sweet spot" on a striking implement like a baseball bat or tennis racquet:

Center of percussion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another reason why hitting with the shin allows you to really belt the bag hard has to do with pain ...or the lack of it. Even without conditioning, you can hit a typical padded heavy bag really hard with the shin without experiencing much pain. At least I can. And my shins aren't that tough. But I do have some traumatic arthritis (from old injuries) as well as bone spurs and fused bones in my ankles. Hitting with the top of the instep really hurts ...bad! And my arthritic toes can no longer pull back far enough to hit cleanly with the ball of the foot.

I'm sure Bill will agree with this at least, getting old is a real bee-atch! On the other hand, if necessary I can nail the side of an opponent's knee, his thigh or (if he's not too tall) his ribs with my shin and still walk the next day ...Or I could just wear steel-toed boots.

In short, most people who have injuries or who don't yet have consistently good kicking technique tend to hold back a bit when kicking a solid target with the foot. Not so much with the shin. Shin kicks may or may not be favored in your style, but they're a great tool to have in your self-defense arsenal.

 

[Ironbear24]

Everything isn't about power. Certain techniques are used because of the advantages of the technique. Can you kick someone with your shin? Yes. Does it mean you should always kick with the shin? No
The shin isn't more powerful, it's just a harder piece of bone, especially if it's conditioned. Kicking with the shin requires that your shin is conditioned properly. But even a good leg check can defeat strong shins.

My shins aren't conditioned and I've been able to put baseball sized knots on people with a good leg check.

Kicks are like punches in terms of making the bag swing. If your kick made the bag fly far away then you may be doing quite a bit of pushing with that leg. When you kick the bag it should crumple and move a little. If you were to take a baseball bat and hit the same bag as hard as you can, the bag will crumple and not swing wildly. Between swinging a wooden bad and kicking, I'm sure many of use can probably swing that bat harder than we can kick.

Ewwww that pic is brutal. Thanks for the advice though.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I use my shin, not for the power but because I can't rely on my opponent not entering in a way that results in me hitting with my toe and jamming it. If I'm kicking in that range, I use a side/front/maybe hook kick, or do a slide roundhouse with my shin. My former sensei, however, conditioned his foot/toe to a weird extent. Getting hit by his toe was one of the most painful things I've felt. His roundhouse with his ball or toe is way more powerful than my roundhouse with my shin.

Not really sure what the purpose of this post is, except to say that from my experience kicking with the ball and toe are much more powerful, but only if your foot/toe is conditioned properly. If you condition your shin properly, kick with that instead.

 

[Ironbear24]

@ Ironbear24 I would disagree with Bill on this one. I do not believe that the bag "flew far and shook violently" because you pushed it with your shin. I think you really belted it good! Here's why:

Although I agree with what Bill said about the greater range, velocity and focused impact of striking with the ball of the foot or top of the instep, there are other factors to consider. Let me explain. The Escrima I practice teaches a "bastard round kick" delivered to low targets, and when using it, I favor striking with the shin. It is, in fact, a very powerful point of contact. This is because it is essentially near the point of the center of percussion. This is a concept from physics that many weapons arts are aware of, rather like the "sweet spot" on a striking implement like a baseball bat or tennis racquet:

Center of percussion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another reason why hitting with the shin allows you to really belt the bag hard has to do with pain ...or the lack of it. Even without conditioning, you can hit a typical padded heavy bag really hard with the shin without experiencing much pain. At least I can. And my shins aren't that tough. But I do have some traumatic arthritis (from old injuries) as well as bone spurs and fused bones in my ankles. Hitting with the top of the instep really hurts ...bad! And my arthritic toes can no longer pull back far enough to hit cleanly with the ball of the foot.

I'm sure Bill will agree with this at least, getting old is a real bee-atch! On the other hand, if necessary I can nail the side of an opponent's knee, his thigh or (if he's not too tall) his ribs with my shin and still walk the next day ...Or I could just wear steel-toed boots.

In short, most people who have injuries or who don't yet have consistently good kicking technique tend to hold back a bit when kicking a solid target with the foot. Not so much with the shin. Shin kicks may or may not be favored in your style, but they're a great tool to have in your self-defense arsenal.

Thank you. I will keep this in mind.

 

[MAfreak]

how could anybody ever recommend to strike with the ankle? its a weakpoint and when you weaken it while smashing it somewhere you could easily sprain it sooner or later in the fight / training session.
maybe i'm overcautious due to general ankle problems i have, but i think its a good advice anyway.

 

[marques]

With shin is easier (bigger error margin) and more power without special conditioning. (Thai style.) Although the broken legs seen before, I find it safer since tibia is stronger than ankle and toes.
With the ball of the foot, you have more distance (which may be advantageous or not). Some of you say "less area" as an advantage. Well, so it is more likely to fail. And (my) ankles are fragile...
Personally, I use foot on head and legs. Shin on body and legs.

 

[drop bear]

The shin kick is not more powerful than the ball or the flat of your foot. This can be easily proven by understanding geometry. Your hip is the fulcrum; the leg is the lever. The longer the lever is, the more speed (and therefore power, since force = mass times acceleration) it has when it lands. Your leg is 'longer' at the end than further towards the lever. Therefore, you generate maximum velocity at the toes when you kick with a roundhouse. Mass is the same everywhere because your leg is your leg no matter what part you hit with.

The sweet spot is not the end of the bat.

Science has lied to you.

 

[marques]

That is just great and corresponds to what I feel when kicking a heavy bag. With that "d" distance, which corresponds ~ to the middle of the shin, I can put power being balanced and relaxed. With the lower end of the shin... is not the same. Actually I feel bad "vibrations"...
Thanks for the pics.
PS: This analogy (baseball bat) works for me. Anyway I believe there are different kicks styles that work under different "equations" and are equally good.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just thought I'd mention this. A couple years ago, while sparring with a partner in the dojo, I tried a roundhouse kick on him and he raised his shin to block it. We clashed shin to shin. It didn't seem to cause him any problems, but it raised a very painful bone bruise on my shin from the impact.

It hurt for a long time, and even now, years later, I can find the spot where it happened with my fingers and I can feel the 'dent' and if I put my finger there, it still hurts.

Something similar happened to me when I was a kid and trying to play soccer (I suck at soccer). I was winding up to kick the ball and someone tried to kick it as well and kicked my shin instead. That one took about five years to stop hurting completely.

So just keep that in mind. Shin bone-bruises are really bad.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just thought I'd mention this. A couple years ago, while sparring with a partner in the dojo, I tried a roundhouse kick on him and he raised his shin to block it. We clashed shin to shin. It didn't seem to cause him any problems, but it raised a very painful bone bruise on my shin from the impact.

It hurt for a long time, and even now, years later, I can find the spot where it happened with my fingers and I can feel the 'dent' and if I put my finger there, it still hurts.

Something similar happened to me when I was a kid and trying to play soccer (I suck at soccer). I was winding up to kick the ball and someone tried to kick it as well and kicked my shin instead. That one took about five years to stop hurting completely.

So just keep that in mind. Shin bone-bruises are really bad.

Shins are like everything else, they have to be conditioned. Ironbear may put himself in harms way if he gets into his head that it's a more powerful kick.
I can kick someone with my shin and it will hurt them even if I'm not blasting a lot of power into it.

how could anybody ever recommend to strike with the ankle?

You can strike with the ankle, it just requires technique and conditioning. There's a time and place to kick using that part of the body as well. Those types of kicks work better to target the head, the hands, the calf muscles, and the feet (sweeping) It's not effective for striking the thigh. The shin does a much better job damaging the thigh with less effort.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ewwww that pic is brutal. Thanks for the advice though.

I just don't want you to think you can go around killing things with your shin without proper conditioning. If Muay Thai fighters condition their shins then that's a good sign of what you'll need to do to keep yourself from damaging your leg.

Oh by the way don't do any of that crazy hard conditioning technique for the shin. You want to condition it slowly

 

[MAfreak]

You can strike with the ankle, it just requires technique and conditioning. There's a time and place to kick using that part of the body as well. Those types of kicks work better to target the head, the hands, the calf muscles, and the feet (sweeping) It's not effective for striking the thigh. The shin does a much better job damaging the thigh with less effort.

sure one can. but one shouldn't. i can also strike with my neck under circumstances. but it is wise?

 

[JowGaWolf]

sure one can. but one shouldn't. i can also strike with my neck under circumstances. but it is wise?