A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[puunui]

nor have I posted anything negative or attacked anyone in any way. I will not get personal & I will continue to post with courtesy.

Obviously, other people feel differently.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't think that she's negative or has attacked other board members. Both you and she have had negative things to say about various figures in taekwondo history. In fairness, your comments about such people have been far more scathing than hers.

The fact is that in all of the threads where the two of you get into protracted debate, it is the same debate. You both argue the same points over and over again, seemingly in some vain attempt to have the last word. And that is what people are tiring of (though if they truly are tining of it, they could simply avoid this thread and one or two others. Their continued reading and participation is entirely their own doing, myself included).

Yourself and Chris have far fewer posts exchanged between the two of you, though frankly, the nature of those exchanges are such that less is probably more.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am sorry as I don't look at these exchanges as "bickering",

They didn't start out that way, but that is what they have become. You've both gone well past what most would consider productive discussion and well past what most would be considered productive debate.

I also remain open minded & wish more would. I am not on any side, but am simply looking to learn more.

No offense, but you are every bit as entrenched in your postition as Puunui is in his.

99.9% of the time, I find that people who say,

a mind is like a parachute, it works BEST when it is OPEN!

are really not as open minded as they would like to believe and really only want you to be open their point of view. In the context of a debate, the implication by the one saying it is that they are open minded while their opponent is close minded.

In most debates/arguments, both individuals are equally close minded. It comes down to what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to learn what the other person has to say, you wouldn't be debating or arguing. In a debate, the goal is to make a stronger case for your position than the person you are debating against.

Being close minded regarding a subject is also not always bad, as the parachute saying implies. I am closed minded, for example, to the arguement that the holocaust never happened. I give it no weight. The weight of evidence and historical accounts leave no room for such a silly assertion. Same goes for the idea of a flat earth. I am closed to that idea because it is proven to be round and successfull navigation of international air and sea travel based on a round earth leaves no room for a flat earth. Entertainment value aside, why be open to arguements to the contrary?

Don't get me wrong; I'm a fan of spirited debate because it benefits both participants by forcing them to present cogent and supportable arguments. Debate is also beneficial to those in the audience because they are getting to hear two opposing views in real time and may then decide for themselves what to think.

But debates have absolutely nothing to do with open mindedness and rarely result in a debator being swayed by the argument of the other party.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

I would love to add to this converstation about proper ettique, but then again we cannot simply because TKD has not had any except for those that believe the same way you do. I know my input would just bring certain people to say but that was not the right way of the elders or this is completely wrong because so and so said so? I would love to see TKD grow as a whole but to be honest to many chiefs and not enough compromising to bring people together for the betterment of TKD.

I for one love to listen to the exact sameting over and over because it reminds me of teaching my boys when they was two and three years old if they hear it enough they will start to believe what I am saying but for the most part we are dealing with grown adults, that cannot seem to understand we wish to believe what we want and what we have been told.

In closing please remember that I love TKD as a way of life but all this so call bickering is just plain stupid because you will never agree or change your mindset to believe anything except what you have been told.:asian:

 

[puunui]

The fact is that in all of the threads where the two of you get into protracted debate, it is the same debate. You both argue the same points over and over again, seemingly in some vain attempt to have the last word.

I would disagree that it is the same debate; I would say that it is different debates with the same result. I guess that came look like the same debate, but I don't think it really is. For example, the very last one, about President Park hating General Choi to the point of doing things to thwart him, is simply not true, because if what they were saying was true, there would have been a completely different result for General Choi. Think about it, if you were President Park, and you hated General Choi, would you have allowed the ROK military to teach General Choi's forms? Different debate, same result.

Yourself and Chris have far fewer posts exchanged between the two of you, though frankly, the nature of those exchanges are such that less is probably more.

There is a purpose to that one.

 

[puunui]

but all this so call bickering is just plain stupid because you will never agree or change your mindset to believe anything except what you have been told.:asian:

I again disagree. I do think they are changing their minds. You can see it and feel it in their posts. We go through all this now, once and for all, in the hopes that we never have to deal with it ever again. In other words, take a look at the discussion from the Chonkwon sky viewpoint, rather than from the Koryo ground level, because the perspective will radically change the way you see it. One of the things I like about the new Hawaii 5-0 is that there are camera shots from a helicopter of places I recognize, and the different viewpoint changes my perspective on the area being panned. I like google earth for the same reason, although street view is also very handy.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would disagree that it is the same debate; I would say that it is different debates with the same result. I guess that came look like the same debate, but I don't think it really is. For example, the very last one, about President Park hating General Choi to the point of doing things to thwart him, is simply not true, because if what they were saying was true, there would have been a completely different result for General Choi. Think about it, if you were President Park, and you hated General Choi, would you have allowed the ROK military to teach General Choi's forms? Different debate, same result.

Yes, that is a better way of putting it. Same result: a debate about General Choi.

There is a purpose to that one.

I'll have to take your word there.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Yes, that is a better way of putting it. Same result: a debate about General Choi.

Or rather same result: General Choi lied once again.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Or rather same result: General Choi lied once again.

Common denomenator: General Choi.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Who of the pioneers did not lie, I mean really. All of them had what they believe to be the truth based on what they believe was being said. I cannot comment because I have been told many stories over the years, which one to believe, maybe none of them and just start believing in what I can see.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, I have nothing further to contribute to this thread at this point.

Enjoy,

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Who of the pioneers did not lie, I mean really. All of them had what they believe to be the truth based on what they believe was being said. I cannot comment because I have been told many stories over the years, which one to believe, maybe none of them and just start believing in what I can see.

The pioneers didn't lie, at least not to me; they didn't have to, because the facts are on their side. Sometimes I have had to think deeply about what was being said to understand the point that they were trying to make. Also, some of the second or third generation who came to the US did not know the answers to certain questions, and when put on the spot by their American students, may have said things they they believed was correct, but didn't actually know. Also, I notice that different seniors will give different answers to different students, depending on the student's ability to understand. For example, we tell children the story of Santa Claus, but for adults they can hear a different story about the real St. Nicholas. Are we lying to children when we speak of Santa, or are we simply giving them a version that they can understand? One thing I do notice though, is that the story is very basically very consistent, no matter who I speak to. Talk to people and they all give a very similar version of what happened, if they were in fact present and speaking from personal knowledge.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't think that she's negative or has attacked other board members. Both you and she have had negative things to say about various figures in taekwondo history. In fairness, your comments about such people have been far more scathing than hers.

Yes I have posted negative things about people involved in the history of TKD. However I never made any personal attacks against them & please correct me if I am wrong & I will go on record corre ting it myself & making amends where ever needed, with the appropriate apologies.
So for instance I have said that Gen Choi had a dictatorial leadership style, he was an authoritarian, he was a self promoter & highlighted his efforts & downplayed that of his team, that he worked with the CIA & north Korea, a terrible regime, so much worse than their southern counterparts, who are now a true, free & rich democracy, helped greatly by the father of the Korean economic miracle, Gen Park, who was also a brutal dictator, with some saying the ends justified the means.
I have also said that Dr Kim Un Yong, the father of modern TKD & the greatest TKD leader responsible for Olympic TKD, was a KCIA operative, who operated under the name of Mikey Kim, who was also arrested, convicted & served time for breaking Korean law. However the acknowledgment was fully there for all to see, that the nasty Korean politics played their part in that as well.
Of course we know the uproar that I caused when I said Grandmaster Lee Chong Woo lied, but then again, I was only using his words when he said he was the one that came up with that story about the 2,000 year old history of TKD. Then it was his own words again, where he addressed the "branch trimming" that help to steal medals for the Korean players on the world stage. But make no mistake about it, Mr Lee is probably the most influential martial artist who helped give the world Kukki TKD.
I have done nothing but applaud these individuals, saying that they do deserve credit & thanks!

The fact is that in all of the threads where the two of you get into protracted debate, it is the same debate. You both argue the same points over and over again, seemingly in some vain attempt to have the last word. And that is what people are tiring of (though if they truly are tining of it, they could simply avoid this thread and one or two others. Their continued reading and participation is entirely their own doing, myself included).

Yourself and Chris have far fewer posts exchanged between the two of you, though frankly, the nature of those exchanges are such that less is probably more.

Daniel

I think that this is a valid point & legitimate concern. I will try to move some replies & posts to separate threads & keep points refuted to single reponses, not adding more than 1 in a reply.
Part of the problem as I see it, is when I respond with substance, much is ignored & the response at times only addresses minor points. That is what is frustrating for me.
I will persevere & try to be clearer, sorry.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

They didn't start out that way, but that is what they have become. You've both gone well past what most would consider productive discussion and well past what most would be considered productive debate.
No offense, but you are every bit as entrenched in your postition as Puunui is in his.
99.9% of the time, I find that people who say,
are really not as open minded as they would like to believe and really only want you to be open their point of view. In the context of a debate, the implication by the one saying it is that they are open minded while their opponent is close minded.
In most debates/arguments, both individuals are equally close minded. It comes down to what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to learn what the other person has to say, you wouldn't be debating or arguing. In a debate, the goal is to make a stronger case for your position than the person you are debating against.
Being close minded regarding a subject is also not always bad, as the parachute saying implies. I am closed minded, for example, to the arguement that the holocaust never happened. I give it no weight. The weight of evidence and historical accounts leave no room for such a silly assertion. Same goes for the idea of a flat earth. I am closed to that idea because it is proven to be round and successfull navigation of international air and sea travel based on a round earth leaves no room for a flat earth. Entertainment value aside, why be open to arguements to the contrary?
Don't get me wrong; I'm a fan of spirited debate because it benefits both participants by forcing them to present cogent and supportable arguments. Debate is also beneficial to those in the audience because they are getting to hear two opposing views in real time and may then decide for themselves what to think.
But debates have absolutely nothing to do with open mindedness and rarely result in a debator being swayed by the argument of the other party.
Daniel

Yes Sir, good points. By open minded, I mean more fair. I am the 1st to say that TKD came from karate, but is not karate, it is Korean TKD. I am also very clear that the path taken, was actually 2 major ones, original, ITF, Chang Hon TKD or Olympic, WTF, Kukki TKD.
Therefore at some point, probably the 1960s, the histories will diverge! It is not a lie or fabrication by the other side, but rather 2 different stories to be told, 2 seperate groups to be credited & thanked.
I clearly see this & have been very consistent in my praise of the Kukki TKD pioneers. They all deserve credit & thanks from Korea & all TKD students, now & in the future. But they never will now or in the future, unless we name them.
Surely no one can have a problem with this approach, can they?
Am I being too naive?

You see for me, it is now the 2nd decade of the 21st century. We still see to be fighting 20th century battles & few of us have been even hurt directly from those past wars, so why are we fighting?
We are all TKDin!
We owe it to each other & our Art, to be fair, polite & open to share.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You know, a while back we had some nice discussions with the Author of A Killing Art...
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85330&highlight=Alex+Gillis
He is/was a member of MT... perhaps someone could entice him to hear his side and perspective... again...

EVERYBODY COMES TO MT!

Yes thanks for sharing those links.
The great thing about Mr Gillis' book is that he has trained ITF, WTF & independently. he is an investigative journalist & college writing instructor, who did his homework.
Going through some 4,000 pages of FBI & US Congress official records helps shed light on the all important context of the time & the nasty Korean politics that played such a role in TKD development & history. If we do not understand these concepts & Korean history, we will not really get to the bottom of the confusion surrounding this subject.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would love to add to this converstation about proper ettique, but then again we cannot simply because TKD has not had any except for those that believe the same way you do. I know my input would just bring certain people to say but that was not the right way of the elders or this is completely wrong because so and so said so? I would love to see TKD grow as a whole but to be honest to many chiefs and not enough compromising to bring people together for the betterment of TKD.:asian:

Sir I don't think that there is a need for compromise or better yet, the compromise can be simple:
TKD was created in Korea by TKD leaders that either learned martial arts abroad or leanr from those that learned outside of Korea.
These Korean were patriotic & looked to create a new Korean martial art & or sport.
I for one think that they did both & did it great!

Then we have to tell the story of who did what, so the 2 major paths of development can be more fully documented.

The time for silly my TKD is better than your TKD or my TKD Father can beat up your TKD Father, is long gone.
I for one do not want to wage that battle.
We are all TKDin, maybe some of us are TKD brothers & sisters, while some may be cousins, while others distant cousins. But we are all in the big TKD family. While families do fight from time to time, they also have to remember that in the end, they are still family.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I would disagree that it is the same debate; I would say that it is different debates with the same result. I guess that came look like the same debate, but I don't think it really is. For example, the very last one, about President Park hating General Choi to the point of doing things to thwart him, is simply not true, because if what they were saying was true, there would have been a completely different result for General Choi. Think about it, if you were President Park, and you hated General Choi, would you have allowed the ROK military to teach General Choi's forms? Different debate, same result.

Again, the history is there. While some may not wish to acknowledge it, it is still there. Go to the time line & you will see how things broke down & got worse, not only for Gen Choi, but many Koreans, including Gen Park, which resulted in his ever more harsh & brutal tactics being deployed.
Try asking academics who specialize in Korean history or politics. They can verify these things & probably explain them better. Much of this can also be researched online.
The problem is most TKDin don't join TKD for history. They join to sweat in a physical activity that will give them some self defence, a sport & a way to a better life. Even those TKDin that are interested in their roots & history of their Art, fewer will be motivated or interested enough to do the required deeper research & thinking.
You sir are a thinking man, highly educated, wonderfully positions to have been in the company of many important people & seem to be highly motivated & interested in sharing. I thank you for it.

I think that the ITF syllabus was finally removed from the military in or by 1975.

Things often take time.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Yes, that is a better way of putting it. Same result: a debate about General Choi. Daniel

The debate about Gen Choi is often heated as many do not like to acknowledge what he did with his TKD or the role that he played in the early days of TKD, before the split occurred.

See I stipulated long ago that Gen Choi lied, was a self promoter, dictator etc. I also know that not only didn't he have anything to do with Kukki TKD he fought their efforts all along the way & tried hard to keep it from getting into the Olympics.

Now I know that many do not like him & some, like the deceased Gen Park even "hated" him (according to the Modern History). Personal feelings aside & personalities not withstanding, he did accomplish many things with his TKD & for those that followed him, while not as many as Kukki TKDin, but none the less, a significant number. Not to want to give any credit for this, is somewhat disingenuous & has a partisan feel to it.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Who of the pioneers did not lie, I mean really. All of them had what they believe to be the truth based on what they believe was being said. I cannot comment because I have been told many stories over the years, which one to believe, maybe none of them and just start believing in what I can see.

I am not so sure that all of it was lies. People see things differently. All of us have various levels of recall & interpretation etc. People were involved in the development of more than 1 TKD, so that in & of itself is reason for numerous accounts. None of which can be looked at as lies, but rather different stories of the various paths of development.

So if I post that "A" did 1,2,3, that does not mean that "B" did not do 7,8,4 & 2.

It is fairly simple in the end, as it boils down to:
Some Koreans had an opportunity to travel abroad. While there they were exposed to martial arts, like karate that itself was a fairly new development in Japan from the 1920s. When they returned to Korea, they opened Korean karate kwans after WWII ended. From here, TKD developed. In the 1960s, there were 2 major paths of development:
1) TaeKwon-Do 2) Tae Soo Do
In 1965 they started to embrace the TKD name, but attempts to bring the 2 together with techniques etc, failed.
(I will add that the failure may have had a lot to do with Gen Choi & his behavior. However it was also resisted by GM Hwang Kee & Dr Yoon, who didn't unify as well)
By 1971 Dr Kim Un Yong came on the scene & this gifted leader had a 3 point vision for developing TKD.
1972 Gen Choi entered into exiled to Canada, to escape political oppression, which coincided with his ever shrinking power in Korea & weakening hand in TKD. 1972 saw the arrival of the KKW, with 1973 being the WTF's 1st year. At these points the paths were never yet able to join together again. The world came to know TKD as Kukki or Olympic TKD. Very harsh feelings remain today, as evidenced by these debates.

However today is the time to start to understand more & credit all.

 

[bluewaveschool]

ITF Taekwondo is NOT original TKD. GM Lee had nothing to do with the ITF. Gen. Choi founded a NAME, and even that's up for debate if you ask GM Son. He called what he was doing, what the Chung Do Kwan people taught his Oh Do Kwan, TKD. TKD had already been founded, he just changed the name to give it a nationalistic name. Having read GM Son's book Korean Karate: The Art of Tae Kwon Do (remember him, kicked Choi out on his rear?) and compared the pictures to what I do, appears to be that someone had learned TKD before the 1954 naming committee came around. There are some differences for sure, but given that what is most likely my lineage, original ATA, was founded by a Chung Do Kwan guy, it's pretty close. Unless you want to say that GM Son changed his ways to teach what Gen. Choi was teaching.