5 reasons TaeKwonDo as a system (not individual techniques) breaks down in a Muay Thai ring

[Tez3]

Fighters of both of the two main federations (WTF/ITF) will be on the behinds if they do jumping back kicks, you know, the types of techniques that actually signify taekwondo from other arts.

Do you mean Tobi ushiro Geri?

 

[Dirty Dog6]

Because the curriculums are roughly the same no matter if you do KKW/WTF style in Iran or Norway. The styles are codified

You didn't answer the question. And no, they are not, although the differences are not necessarily something that a beginner would be able to describe.

And not a single word of what you quoted and attributed to me was written by me. Please do not falsely attribute quotes to me.

 

[Tez3]

And not a single word of what you quoted and attributed to me was written by me. Please do not falsely attribute quotes to me.

I wrote it but perhaps he's not speaking to me anymore. Certainly hasn't answered my questions. I really do want to know why he is training at a place he derides and obviously doesn't respect.

 

[drop bear108]

ok. So here is saenchai. who does flash kicks and also that knee forwards style of kicking.

Ok. He is a thai guy. But there is an indication that someone can ma,e that sort of method work.

 

[Axiom]

And not a single word of what you quoted and attributed to me was written by me. Please do not falsely attribute quotes to me.

I can't edit it now and it was not my intention to attribute the quote to you.

 

[MA_Student]

So it's my day off work today and me and a couple friends met up at one friends house where his garage is his personal gym with mats down so we decided to do a light spar. One friend has had 1 amateur Muay Thai fight and the other is a taekwondo black belt. I was interested to see it because of this thread. These 2 had never sparred each other before. I wish I had my phone on me so I could've filmed it and shown it here.

Guess what happened....

It was a close even fight. No one dominated anyone both landed good shots both took a few. Can't say who won because no one wins in sparring but it was close so there we are case closed

 

[Axiom]

You didn't answer the question. And no, they are not, although the differences are not necessarily something that a beginner would be able to describe..

"Beginner" Are you suggesting that there are fundamental difference within the same styles of TaeKwonDo? That would make absolutely no sense if they share the same sparring format and forms. The differences are usually in emphasis.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf108]

"Beginner" Are you suggesting that there are fundamental difference within the same styles of TaeKwonDo? That would make absolutely no sense if they share the same sparring format and forms. The differences are usually in emphasis.

At four years, yeah still a beginner. You even said so yourself in a post where you stated black belt is for beginners in TKD (paraphrasing).
Not all TKD has the same sparring format. Your confusing TKD with WTF again, and assuming that all TKD does sport/Olympic TKD.
Regarding forms, different styles will have different forms, even if they're all under the TKD umbrella. But regarding 'emphasis', the points you initially made (1, 2, 3 and 5) are a result of the emphasis by your school, and Olympic style TKD sparring. 4 I would agree with since that's a specific technique that AFAIK is not in any major style of TKD.

 

[Axiom]

I'm paraphrasing now from a bronze medalist in ITF TaeKwonDo about his experience competing for 5 years in Muay Thai, and how TaeKwondo translates: Bare in mind that this is the more conservative style of TKD compared to the WTF guys....

He trains with me.

Him - TKD high kicks don't work

Me- So drop the high ones and go for midsection. Why not sidekick their exposed abdominal area due to high guard ?

Him - They don't care if I connect or not. This is full contact Thaiboxing. Sidekicks ain't doing any damage to their well conditioned bodies. And they pick up on it fast.

Conversation died after that. I ran out of ideas

 

[DaveB]

ok. So here is saenchai. who does flash kicks and also that knee forwards style of kicking.

Ok. He is a thai guy. But there is an indication that someone can ma,e that sort of method work.

Good eye, he does kick like a Taekwondo man.

 

[Axiom]

Not all TKD has the same sparring format. Your confusing TKD with WTF again, .

That's not what I wrote. Read again. I wrote that the same styles of TKD share the same sparring format (usually) and forms, and that means in effect that difference within styles could not be fundamental.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm ITF. Fighters of both of the two main federations (WTF/ITF) will be on the behinds if they do jumping back kicks, you know, the types of techniques that actually signify taekwondo from other arts. If you just throw old school roundhouse kicks, you might as well go in there as a KickBoxer.

Our turning kicks are quite different from the roundhouse kicks you find in kickboxing.

 

[Tez3]

a bronze medalist in ITF TaeKwonDo

A bronze medalist in what competition? Local between clubs, national, international or Olympic or perhaps just within your own club? How old is he?

Saying he's a bronze medallist doesn't give us any idea of his actual level of experience, I once received a gold medal for running.... I was seven.

 

[Axiom]

Our turning kicks are quite different from the roundhouse kicks you find in kickboxing.

Depends on the background of the Kickboxing coach. Kickboxing is not a style in and of itself. It's various competition formats and clubs oriented to whatever format they feel proficient in.

 

[Axiom]

Saying he's a bronze medallist doesn't give us any idea of his actual level of experience, I once received a gold medal for running.... I was seven.

The ITF World Championships 2014, free sparring.

 

[Tez3]

The ITF World Championships 2014, free sparring.

Thank you.

 

[Axiom]

Thank you.

To hear me him say that given that he is still with us is very disheartening. Can't blame his honesty though.

 

[Tez3]

Him - TKD high kicks don't work

Me- So drop the high ones and go for midsection. Why not sidekick their exposed abdominal area due to high guard ?

Him - They don't care if I connect or not. This is full contact Thaiboxing. Sidekicks ain't doing any damage to their well conditioned bodies. And they pick up on it fast.

Of course he could just be a bad Muay Thai fighter. Perhaps his sidekicks are only powerful enough to score in TKD ( doesn't mean that they are poor or less strong kicks just that you only practise at the power you need if you compete) and he needs to actually put more power into them. Before getting disheartened you might want to find out for yourself than believing everyone else's opinion. He is assuming that TKD is less powerful than MT but they are different sports, it will depend on who he fought and actually how good he is. Perhaps it's not that sidekicks don't affect MT fighters but rather just his. Sometimes it's a shock when you are good in one thing, try something that you think is similar and you aren't very good at it. Assuming it's the style that is faulty is wrong, it's more likely to be the fighter for quite a few reasons.

 

[DaveB]

I'm paraphrasing now from a bronze medalist in ITF TaeKwonDo about his experience competing for 5 years in Muay Thai, and how TaeKwondo translates: Bare in mind that this is the more conservative style of TKD compared to the WTF guys....

He trains with me.

Him - TKD high kicks don't work

Me- So drop the high ones and go for midsection. Why not sidekick their exposed abdominal area due to high guard ?

Him - They don't care if I connect or not. This is full contact Thaiboxing. Sidekicks ain't doing any damage to their well conditioned bodies. And they pick up on it fast.

Conversation died after that. I ran out of ideas

So Axiom, what makes you listen to that one guy over all the people you are arguing with?

Could it be that his view matches your own so seems more valid?

I've not long ago started training Muay Thai and one of my main background arts is wtf taekwondo.

I don't know why your friend thinks the high kicks don't work?
I can only guess it's because he has no power in them because he's trained those flicky machine gun kicks that ITF folk like to use in demo...
...But that is just a guess about a kicking style I've never done so not worth much.


Side kicks and spinning back kicks have been my saving grace against the guys at my club. And while he's correct that ultra conditioned fighters are harder to put down with a mid section side kick, to say they don't care is a massive over-statement.

As I commented a while back in another thread the difficulty I found was that it's much harder to get them to extend with a power technique or with a lunge despite the thai fighter constantly creeping towards you. This makes every engagement a messy clash rather than the high stakes game of distance manipulation that wtf sparring is.

I realise you are going to ignore this post as you've ignored everyone who disagreed with you, but for what it's worth the following is what I believe.

All fighters win or loose based on how they have trained.
You commented once at not being a fast kicker. That is a flaw in your training. Change how you train and you will get faster.
No TKD man is worth a damn if his kicks can't KO with one shot and if they are so slow they get caught often.

Training is everything but training is not the same as the fighting style (in most cases). How one fights is the "fighting style", the clue is in the words.

For Tkd specifically aside from speed and power the ability to feint and vary the angle of attack and always return your foot to the floor so you can move are IMO key points in fighting other styles that use more hands.

Understand how to use direct energy kicks vs circular kicks.
Kicks should snap from the chamber and penetrate like a bullet. The sight of the chamber should fill the opponent with dread for the bewildering array of possible ***-whopery that it represents.

Switching feet should look like a kick, stepping should look like a kick, spinning should look like a kick and a kick should look like a blinding light of pain.

I could do all that once and I was never "good" at Tkd as classed by tkd folks. I could do that to non tkd people because everybody thinks they can kick so they know what tkd can bring. But unless they've trained in it, they don't know jack.

 

[Axiom]

Of course he could just be a bad Muay Thai fighter. Perhaps his sidekicks are only powerful enough to score in TKD ( doesn't mean that they are poor or less strong kicks just that you only practise at the power you need if you compete) and he needs to actually put more power into them. Before getting disheartened you might want to find out for yourself than believing everyone else's opinion. He is assuming that TKD is less powerful than MT but they are different sports, it will depend on who he fought and actually how good he is. Perhaps it's not that sidekicks don't affect MT fighters but rather just his. Sometimes it's a shock when you are good in one thing, try something that you think is similar and you aren't very good at it. Assuming it's the style that is faulty is wrong, it's more likely to be the fighter for quite a few reasons.

Oh, he's sidekicked me through the mitts into a wall. His roundhouse kick was very explosive too. It's hard to label him anything but legit. Also very experienced in TKD.