3 Boys Killing In Pursuit

[MJS]

Came across this article and thought it'd be interesting to discuss.

FONTANA, Calif. - Authorities say three boys age 15 and under were killed when they fled police in a car at speeds up to 90 mph and then crashed into a house.
California Highway Patrol officials say an officer pulled the car over for running a red light Wednesday evening in Fontana. But the driver sped off.
They say the driver lost control after a brief chase, crashing through a cinderblock wall and into a house.

I don't know the pursuit policy for the State of California, however, here is the one for CT.

Now, where I work, I could count on one hand, the number of pursuits that have been allowed to go on. I've been working where I am for about 6 1/2yrs, so anything that happened prior to that is unknown to me.

Simple mv violations...the officer is usually able to chase, however, a supervisor gets involved pretty quick, and if its deemed that the chase does not meet the above criteria, its broken off.

In the case in CA., I'm surprised that it was allowed to go on, due to the fact that if the plate is run and everything matches up, a follow up later on seems pretty resonable.

A video clip on this case, stated that the kids were in a family members car, joyriding.

I'm sure all of the facts are not out yet, but I'd be willing to bet that it'll only be a matter of time before the lawsuits start flying.

 

[Bikewr]

It's been a matter of debate and policy corrections in police work for some time.
Back when I started, in 1968, pursuits were just considered fun....

Now, when tragedies like this occur, everyone wants changes in pursuit policies. However, had the lads in the process of "joyriding" managed to kill themselves or someone else, the cry would be "why didn't the police stop them?"

We had an incident last year here in St. Louis where officers "jumped" a stolen auto which sped off. The officers did not pursue the vehicle, however, several blocks down the road the vehicle was still going 90+ and centerpunched another driver, killing him and two of the car thieves.

So what's right?

 

[MJS]

It's been a matter of debate and policy corrections in police work for some time.
Back when I started, in 1968, pursuits were just considered fun....

Now, when tragedies like this occur, everyone wants changes in pursuit policies. However, had the lads in the process of "joyriding" managed to kill themselves or someone else, the cry would be "why didn't the police stop them?"

We had an incident last year here in St. Louis where officers "jumped" a stolen auto which sped off. The officers did not pursue the vehicle, however, several blocks down the road the vehicle was still going 90+ and centerpunched another driver, killing him and two of the car thieves.

So what's right?

Yup, and this is why I always say they (the cops) are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Likewise, when you said the public would cry, "Why didn't the police stop them?" they'd echo the same cry if they continued to chase..."Why did the police have to chase them?"

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yup, and this is why I always say they (the cops) are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Likewise, when you said the public would cry, "Why didn't the police stop them?" they'd echo the same cry if they continued to chase..."Why did the police have to chase them?"

Your absolutely right MJS in that when ever the outcome is not good then the police will be at fault. It is a very difficult and fine line. Personally I think if you have the plate and it is for a minor motor vehicle violation you can do a follow up and go from there. If it is some thing major then once criteria are met then a decision has to be made whether to continue or back off. I also feel that punishment for fleeing should be very hard to help reduce the risk of those wishing to flee.

 

[grydth]

As a society, for ourselves and for the police, we need to decide just what it is that we expect from police in certain all too common situations. Given the risks LEOs take on our behalf, that is not too much to ask.

If pursuits are deemed the wiser course, perhaps it is time to consider legal measures which would immunize police from suits stemming from them.

These debates sometimes lose focus on who is primarily at fault for the situation.... the fleeing criminal. The media is full of boo-hoo-hoo's fro criminals, both domestic and international. We will only be safe when we return to the notion that We Have Rights, Too!, and that those are much more important. Prosecutors are expanding use of felony-murder charging, and charges for DWI killings are finally beginning to reflect the needless slaughter these people cause. Victims are starting to sue aggressively - and I don't mean suing the cops, I mean suing the criminals.

The only way these stories will decrease is when the police are supported, and when the severity of penal and civil sanctions again frighten the criminals.

 

[Drac]

Hey MJS...We have a similar policy up here too, if the pursuit is too risky it is called off..One chikenshit department that I worked for had a policy for when we are allowed to activate our emergency equipment, it takes a stupid-visors approvial to run Priority and they never seem to listen to their radios..If folks would simply NOT RUN from the cops alot of this could be avoided...

 

[MJS]

Hey MJS...We have a similar policy up here too, if the pursuit is too risky it is called off..One chikenshit department that I worked for had a policy for when we are allowed to activate our emergency equipment, it takes a stupid-visors approvial to run Priority and they never seem to listen to their radios..

Superivsors not listening to the radio???? Say it isn't so! LMAO!! Seriously though, you're right. I've had them call on the phone to ask whats going on....and this is smack in the middle of the hot call. A few weeks ago, some of the officers started asking dispatch how we wanted them to respond to a call. Umm...sorry, but until I get something in writing, I will not tell anyone how to respond. If something goes wrong, I dont want them coming back to me, asking why I said to do something. Its not my call, its the guys with those nice little triangle shaped stripes on their sleeve.

If folks would simply NOT RUN from the cops alot of this could be avoided...

Amen brother, Amen!

 

[Drac]

The last chase I got into was because the suspect vehicle almost plowed into my vehicle as I was responding to a multiple shoplifters in a store that had been plagued with theft...They took off down a side street doing about 60 mph..Kids playing and old people walking around.

.I radioed I was attempting to stop said vehicle, we are not allowed to say pursuit..They finally decided to get on the freeway where they and I knew they could outrun me...I got into the high speed lane and all the traffic moved right, the idiots decided to exit thinking I had lost them..

Upon exiting they encountered a jammed exit ramp and the local boys were running towards the vehicle and I was behind..The driver decided to exit the vehicle and ignored my orders to freeze and return her vehicle..There were 3 occupants, driver had no license and had borrowed the vehicle..

One juvenile on probation and the 3rd had a outstanding warrant with another city..It took the local boys almost 3 hrs to inventory all the stolen merchandise..It took me almost as long to do the paperwork..This time I was lucky no one was hurt or injuried...

 

[Bikewr]

I know that some departments have the dispatcher specify the "run" status when a call is assigned; this at least limits the officer's liability. Of course, how that decision is made is somewhat arbitrary....

For us, pursuit is almost out of the question. Although we monitor the surrounding departments, and have access to the local riot and talk-around frequencies, we can't talk directly to the other departments.
So, if we initiated a pursuit, it would have to be something really, seriously bad like a carjacking/hostage situation.
We tried to run a pursuit years ago after a stopped auto tried to run another officer and myself down, but it was a disaster. Went through 4 different jurisdictions, none of whom we could talk to directly...

 

[punisher73]

They need to pass a "Stupid Amendment" to the Constitution that states that if you are a criminal doing criminal activities and you get hurt from those activities it is YOUR FAULT and no one else is responsible.

This would take care of criminals getting hurt while fighting with the police and trying to sue, it would take care of criminals getting hurt in someone else's house and suing the owners. It would also take care of these dummies trying to get away in their car and then wrecking.

No one ever wants to talk about the stats from officers who work in departments that have a "do not pursue" policy on how many more "drive offs" they have because the criminal knows the police aren't going to pursue.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm sure all of the facts are not out yet, but I'd be willing to bet that it'll only be a matter of time before the lawsuits start flying.

Let them start.....they shouldn't get a dime. It was the driver who fled, ran in to a house, and killed himself and his friends. The notion that the police somehow MAKE a person do something like via their presence is a very dangerous and silly one.

 

[sgtmac_46]

They need to pass a "Stupid Amendment" to the Constitution that states that if you are a criminal doing criminal activities and you get hurt from those activities it is YOUR FAULT and no one else is responsible.

That used to be understood in most courts throughout the country....not so much anymore, I suppose.